Lebron jersey - A5

[kingjammy24]

.. if an item is graded a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, you would think that folks would understand that this is not a particularly high grade...

"The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

rudy.

[sportscentury]

"The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

rudy.

Based on my complete post, I hope it was clear that I was speaking from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the MEARS specifics. My guess is that many collectors who buy these A5 jerseys are not well-versed on the MEARS rules and definitions.

Even knowing the specifics, though, I'm not sure that I find "the highest grade" (of A5) on a scale that is this qualified all that compelling.

With all of this said, it seems to mean a lot to a good number of collectors. I just never understood it.

.

[trsent]

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

[kingjammy24]

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested?

i have an email in to troy about it. i eagerly await his response. i shall post it as soon as i receive it.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

[trsent]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

Rudy, so now you have MEARS response and it appears you will still not be buying this jersey so at least you found out what you were looking for.

It all is very interesting to see MEARS response to questions.

[aeneas01]

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

[trsent]

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

I am glad Rudy has made his issues public and now Rudy doesn't have to buy this jersey because he doesn't like the grade or opinion or concept of MEARS authentication. That is his choice. MEARS gave an opinion and Rudy didn't like it, so he won't buy this jersey.

Did MEARS ever give an opinion that this was a game used jersey?

[kingjammy24]

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?...

hello robert

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale. basically, an A5 is supposed to be the same as a legit game-issue. of course, when it's the wrong size, it's not really a game-issue is it? it's more of a pro cut and pro cuts are very much retail shirts.

the purpose of the A5 is that it's supposed to indicate a jersey that meets all of the specs of a jersey issued for play to that particular player. my issue is that mears states that it makes sure the size is correct but it seems they don't. troy did not provide any evidence whatsoever that james ever wore a 52+4. what troy did provide was a loophole in the language that allows for size variances under the A5. if you allow for size variances then you aren't making "sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". mears is contradicting itself within the same grade. on one hand troy says that in order to earn an A5 a jersey must be the correct size and on the other he says that the A5 allows for size variances which means it doesn't have to be the correct size!

if you're a collector and you saw that 52+4 with mears A5 and you read troy's statement about what constitutes an A5, you would be very much under the impression that mears made sure that lebron was issued a 52+4. but that would be completely incorrect. mears has no evidence whatsoever that lebron was issued such a size.

here are dave bushing's comments (bolding is my own):

"For those keeping track, MEARS has done a total of 42 Lebron James Cleveland jerseys between 3-24-05 and 1-25-09. 33 were size 50, 7 were size 52, all were graded A5 without a single game worn designated example that was accompanied by any provenance. There were also two size 54 jerseys each garnering an A3. To date, MEARS has never authenticated a single example of DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JAMES JERSEY. Given the large number of professional model A5 shirts that have been examined and recorded, at the very least, it is a great example of the difference between the rarity factor of a professionl MODEL jersey and one that can be put "on his back" sort of speak. It also shows the reason why a DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JERSEY such as those obtained directly from the team or player are worth far more than their common professional MODEL counterpart. Example; Payton Manning jerseys acquired through him versus the seemingly endless supply of A5 professional models. Bottom line, an A5 professional model jersey is great for display and or autographs at a certain price level but if you want to collect real, truly worn authenticate and documented game worn jersey, they are very rare in proportion to your typical A5 example and are usually priced accordingly. Hence, an A5 is not an A10. Just my two cents. David Bushing

Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes, can someone post the website that shows where factory direct completely pro tagged jerseys of any size can be ordered by the general public. It has been suggested that any shirt other than a size 50 that is tagged identically to those sized 50 documented game worn jerseys can be purchased at the retail level. I would like to order one to compare measurements and tagging. If I am not mistaken, the mere suggestion that such a shirt is nothing more than a retail shirt would suggest that these can be purchased by anyone direct from the manufacturer. If I can purchase one myself, I will publish the pictures detailing the difference, if any, between the pro model pro tagged shirts and those available through mail order which at best, should be identical except that they will be a size 52+2 rahter than a size 50+2. David Bushing"

order away dave: http://www.jersey-joe.com/bask_rbk_nba_procuts.html

anyway, back when jersey-joe did sell lebron jerseys, the only size that he offered was...*drum roll*.. a 52+4! shocker.

rudy.

[airmaximus]

As its been over 3 years since James has worn a Cavs jersey, does anyone have a definitive guide to his game issued sizes during that era? Reading through the thread 50+4 was his most common size. An Upper Deck member stated they had some 48+4 sizes although I have never seen one.

The size most in question was 52+4 as that factory pro cut size could be purchased back then. After doing some research it seems UDA sold a handful of 2006-07 and 2008-09 size 52+4 "game issued" jerseys with his signature. I have included some pics of these below. You can also lookup the following serial numbers: BAK13090, BAK13093, BAK13094, BAK13095 at http://sports.upperdeck.com/memorabi...am_lookup.aspx

I also know that UDA sold 50 2008-09 size 50+4 factory pro-cuts with the tags still attached and an "MVP" inscription.