Lebron jersey - A5

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

Rudy, so now you have MEARS response and it appears you will still not be buying this jersey so at least you found out what you were looking for.

It all is very interesting to see MEARS response to questions.

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

I am glad Rudy has made his issues public and now Rudy doesn't have to buy this jersey because he doesn't like the grade or opinion or concept of MEARS authentication. That is his choice. MEARS gave an opinion and Rudy didn't like it, so he won't buy this jersey.

Did MEARS ever give an opinion that this was a game used jersey?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

...read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item...

it has nothing to do with not "liking their opinion". joel, if you paid a man to change the oil in your car and later found out he didn't change it, is that simply a case of "not liking his opinion"? is it really such a bizarre concept to expect a company to do what it says it does?

various items evaluated by mears were said to have been stylematched. they were not. in the least. this is not a case of not liking their opinion. it's a case of paying mears to do a job that they say they did but really didn't.

the mears A5 states that the jersey size must be correct. how is a 52+4 correct for james? saying it might possibly be correct isn't the same thing is it being correct. troy's defense was that the A5 definition also gives mears the leeway to accept size variances thus enabling them to say that almost any size is correct. when troy said that one of the criteria for the A5 is that mears "makes sure that the size was issued to the player", this is simply not true. mears does not make sure the size was issued to the player. they say they do, but they don't. how did mears make sure a 52+4 was issued to james? they didn't.

this has nothing to do with opinions. it has to do with doing what you say and saying what you do. if a man says he'll do a certain task and you pay him to do that task then shouldn't he do it?

mears says they do things that they simply do not do. this is not my opinion, it's fact.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?...

hello robert

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale. basically, an A5 is supposed to be the same as a legit game-issue. of course, when it's the wrong size, it's not really a game-issue is it? it's more of a pro cut and pro cuts are very much retail shirts.

the purpose of the A5 is that it's supposed to indicate a jersey that meets all of the specs of a jersey issued for play to that particular player. my issue is that mears states that it makes sure the size is correct but it seems they don't. troy did not provide any evidence whatsoever that james ever wore a 52+4. what troy did provide was a loophole in the language that allows for size variances under the A5. if you allow for size variances then you aren't making "sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". mears is contradicting itself within the same grade. on one hand troy says that in order to earn an A5 a jersey must be the correct size and on the other he says that the A5 allows for size variances which means it doesn't have to be the correct size!

if you're a collector and you saw that 52+4 with mears A5 and you read troy's statement about what constitutes an A5, you would be very much under the impression that mears made sure that lebron was issued a 52+4. but that would be completely incorrect. mears has no evidence whatsoever that lebron was issued such a size.

here are dave bushing's comments (bolding is my own):

"For those keeping track, MEARS has done a total of 42 Lebron James Cleveland jerseys between 3-24-05 and 1-25-09. 33 were size 50, 7 were size 52, all were graded A5 without a single game worn designated example that was accompanied by any provenance. There were also two size 54 jerseys each garnering an A3. To date, MEARS has never authenticated a single example of DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JAMES JERSEY. Given the large number of professional model A5 shirts that have been examined and recorded, at the very least, it is a great example of the difference between the rarity factor of a professionl MODEL jersey and one that can be put "on his back" sort of speak. It also shows the reason why a DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JERSEY such as those obtained directly from the team or player are worth far more than their common professional MODEL counterpart. Example; Payton Manning jerseys acquired through him versus the seemingly endless supply of A5 professional models. Bottom line, an A5 professional model jersey is great for display and or autographs at a certain price level but if you want to collect real, truly worn authenticate and documented game worn jersey, they are very rare in proportion to your typical A5 example and are usually priced accordingly. Hence, an A5 is not an A10. Just my two cents. David Bushing

Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes, can someone post the website that shows where factory direct completely pro tagged jerseys of any size can be ordered by the general public. It has been suggested that any shirt other than a size 50 that is tagged identically to those sized 50 documented game worn jerseys can be purchased at the retail level. I would like to order one to compare measurements and tagging. If I am not mistaken, the mere suggestion that such a shirt is nothing more than a retail shirt would suggest that these can be purchased by anyone direct from the manufacturer. If I can purchase one myself, I will publish the pictures detailing the difference, if any, between the pro model pro tagged shirts and those available through mail order which at best, should be identical except that they will be a size 52+2 rahter than a size 50+2. David Bushing"

order away dave: http://www.jersey-joe.com/bask_rbk_nba_procuts.html

anyway, back when jersey-joe did sell lebron jerseys, the only size that he offered was...*drum roll*.. a 52+4! shocker.

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Rudy, so, what proof do you offer that LeBron didn't wear the size in questions and even if he didn't wear that size, what proof do you show the jersey was not worn for him?

Please, your work is generally very good, but your facts need proof to back them up. Maybe you should contact The Cavs to find out LeBron's jersey orders otherwise you are creating conflict, as usual, in your attempt to smear the MEARS name with just speculation and no concrete proof.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Rudy, so, what proof do you offer that LeBron didn't wear the size in questions and even if he didn't wear that size, what proof do you show the jersey was not worn for him?

Please, your work is generally very good, but your facts need proof to back them up. Maybe you should contact The Cavs to find out LeBron's jersey orders otherwise you are creating conflict, as usual, in your attempt to smear the MEARS name with just speculation and no concrete proof.

the inherant issue is not whether james never wore a 52+4. (only you would expect someone to prove a negative). the issue is that mears has already stated that a 52+4 is correct yet they have no evidence whatsoever. they state they "make sure the size was issued" but they don't. do you understand this? do you understand that they get paid for this stuff and they make claims that they don't back up? you've completely glossed over all of that and instead ask me to prove james never wore a 52. could mears be right? of course. but mears isn't simply saying james might've possibly worn a 52, which i would be fine with. they're not even saying they aren't sure what size he wore. they're
asserting he DID wear a 52. yet apparently that assertion is based on nothing.

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

the inherant issue is not whether james never wore a 52+4. (only you would expect someone to prove a negative). the issue is that mears has already stated that a 52+4 is correct yet they have no evidence whatsoever. they state they "make sure the size was issued" but they don't. do you understand this? do you understand that they get paid for this stuff and they make claims that they don't back up? you've completely glossed over all of that and instead ask me to prove james never wore a 52. could mears be right? of course. but mears isn't simply saying james might've possibly worn a 52, which i would be fine with. they're not even saying they aren't sure what size he wore. they're
asserting he DID wear a 52. yet apparently that assertion is based on nothing.

rudy.

...and you have proved nothing but continued your smear campaign without any proof.

Don't buy the jersey if you do not like it.

Your continued smear of the MEARS name, with speculation because you do not like the system is pathetic and getting old. They try hard to do what they do.

They never claimed the jersey was "game used" did they? The seller may have, but did MEARS call it "game used" to not give it an A5? If this size jerseys were ordered by The Cavs, then a A5 is correct, right?

Prove them wrong because they owe you nothing for your continued attacks on their solid work in this industry.

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

...

[Moustache Gang]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Rudy,

When are you going to learn to stop trying to formulate any discussion with the "unofficial MEARS certified dealer"?? He dances around clear and convincing evidence better than the gymnast that just won the trophy on DWTS!!!

It was almost this time last year when we had the discussion about MEARS VERY SUBJECTIVE scoring system.

Look, here is just one of the problems with the MEARS scoring system.

They can take an actual mid 70's Rollie Fingers and subtract two points -2 for "light use", subtract two point -2 for god only knows what size stain and subtract one -1 for a "name properly restored" for a final score of an A5. Now to me and most collectors, one would believe that jersey was worn by Rollie but it has some staining and restored name.

Now on the same hand they can take a Lebron jersey from any year that looks just like what he wears in a game, size does not really matter, no proof he ever wore the jersey and they can give it an A5. No proof Lebron wore the jersey, Bushing admits they have never authenticated a true game worn Lebron jersey so they have to true exemplar to compare, but it is close to a 50 so they give it an A5!!!

Throw the dart on the dartboard and if it hits anywhere near the bullseye it is a bullseye!!!

There is just know way both of these jerseys can have the same score and that is just one of the flaws of the subjective MEARS scoring system.

I not trying to smear MEARS period. Troy and Dave G. have admitted mistakes in the past, they have admitted they are not right all the time and Troy puts his money where his mouth is. They have a buy back program that works.

They just have a very subjective scoring system and they need to tighten it up and make it more OBJECTIVE.

Are they the best authentication house in the world??? Probably...based on the other handfull of crappy authenticators.

Are they a "world-class" authentication house? Not even close.

The problem with the A5 score is that many collectors believe that an A5 means the jersey was game worn by the athlete. So now all these collectors who have purchased an A5 Lebron believe they have an actual Lebron game used jersey when there is no proof whatsoeverKing James wore this jersey in any NBA game .

Mark

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

...

Robert - What is your point? Rudy bashes groups he doesn't like and he kisses ass of groups he likes. He thinks everyone he doesn't like is out to commit fraud and everyone he like's is clean. Read his posts about MEARS, it is the same issues every day.

I thought you were a helmet expert - What do you have to offer about the jersey/letter in question?

If you don't like my use of what I feel is the English language, block my posts and then you won't have to read it anymore. Why is this so difficult?

[trsent]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Rudy,

When are you going to learn to stop trying to formulate any discussion with the "unofficial MEARS certified dealer"?? He dances around clear and convincing evidence better than the gymnast that just won the trophy on DWTS!!!

It was almost this time last year when we had the discussion about MEARS VERY SUBJECTIVE scoring system.

Look, here is just one of the problems with the MEARS scoring system.

They can take an actual mid 70's Rollie Fingers and subtract two points -2 for "light use", subtract two point -2 for god only knows what size stain and subtract one -1 for a "name properly restored" for a final score of an A5. Now to me and most collectors, one would believe that jersey was worn by Rollie but it has some staining and restored name.

Now on the same hand they can take a Lebron jersey from any year that looks just like what he wears in a game, size does not really matter, no proof he ever wore the jersey and they can give it an A5. No proof Lebron wore the jersey, Bushing admits they have never authenticated a true game worn Lebron jersey so they have to true exemplar to compare, but it is close to a 50 so they give it an A5!!!

Throw the dart on the dartboard and if it hits anywhere near the bullseye it is a bullseye!!!

There is just know way both of these jerseys can have the same score and that is just one of the flaws of the subjective MEARS scoring system.

I not trying to smear MEARS period. Troy and Dave G. have admitted mistakes in the past, they have admitted they are not right all the time and Troy puts his money where his mouth is. They have a buy back program that works.

They just have a very subjective scoring system and they need to tighten it up and make it more OBJECTIVE.

Are they the best authentication house in the world??? Probably...based on the other handfull of crappy authenticators.

Are they a "world-class" authentication house? Not even close.

The problem with the A5 score is that many collectors believe that an A5 means the jersey was game worn by the athlete. So now all these collectors who have purchased an A5 Lebron believe they have an actual Lebron game used jersey when there is no proof whatsoeverKing James wore this jersey in any NBA game .

Mark

Mark - I am not a MEARS anything dealer anymore - Get over it.

You made some good points, but why bring up a term I no longer associate with? Do you really have nothing better to do than bring that up?

I have no associations with MEARS officially or unofficially anymore.

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Robert - What is your point?

my point? simple. and i'll repeat it. again. using less words.

a) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in this thread.
b) this does not constitute a "smear".
c) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in other threads.
d) this does not constitute a "smear campaign".
e) it's clear you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term/phrase, yet you use it freely albeit incorrectly.
f) i ask you to show me an example of rudy, a forum member, "smearing" mears. yet you don't.
g) why? because you have no idea what a "smear" is, nor a "smear campaign".
h) yet you continue to accuse a forum member of this practice.

hope that clears things up for you...

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale.

o.k., gotcha. "...made available for retail sale" does not mean "...made for retail sale". hence troy's comment you posted:

"Again, no store model jerseys (were) awarded the A5 grade, EVER....MEARS has never assigned a grade to a retail jersey"

so mears clearly does not award grades to retail jerseys. that's nice to know, makes sense. yet despite game photo evidence of james sporting a 50 +2, mears grades a james 52 +4 an a5? yet despite jersey joe having sold 52 +4 james jerseys to anyone willing to plunk down $600, mears graded the ebay jersey an a5? that's not nice to know, doesn't seem to make sense. perhaps the ebay jersey mears graded as an a5 actually came directly from the "nba factory"?

...

[reed1216]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

I really think that the bottom line here is that an A5 grade is pretty worthless. Frankly, unless I was well aware of a jerseys characteristics to the extent that I would call myself an expert, I wouldn't make a purchase on the sole basis of MEARS' rating of below an A10 without either a vey good explanation/proof or additional team, league, or player provenence.

I do think MEARS authenticates as well as anyone in the industry, with the exception of MeiGray. While there have been a number of errors, MEARS seems to make every effort to get things right. Although their rating system probably needs some revisions, it's a helluva lot better than some auction house issuing LOAs without doing any research at all.

NBA jerseys are tough, because they're so easy to pass off as game worn. In fact, I gave up collecting NBA stuff for awhile and recently got back into it because of MeiGray's involvement. Of the five NBA jerseys I own, three are directly from MeiGray (Amare Stoudemire X-Mas, Jamal Crawford St. Patty's Day and a 2006-07 Nate Robinson road that I bought for 1/2 price, during MeiGray's Facebook sale). One is a vintage Walter Davis Suns, circa 1980, which I was able to style match with other Suns jerseys from that period. Plus, I purchased it from a forum member (Warren-BTPH), who's opinion I respect with regard to vintage NBA jerseys. The other is a Kevin Garnett Wolves jersey with team paperwork. I was even somewhat skepical of the Garnett because it was cheaper than one would expect from a future HOFer, but the jersey shows good use, particularly with piling around the lower, front portion of the jersey, where the velcro would have rubbed against the material. Plus, it has the LOA from the Wolves.

If you are buying a jersey with the thought that it was game worn without either doing your own research or buying from MeiGray, you're gambling. I know I would hate to have to look at my wall wondering whether or not one of my jerseys was real or not. I want the real deal and have no interest in buying anything that might (or might not) have been game worn.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

[jonincleve]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

what am i missing here?

1) all known exemplars of lebron james jerseys are size 50+2
2) there are no photos of lebron james wearing a 52+4
3) lebron 52+4 jerseys were available at retail sale

how can a 52+4 even get graded?

take care
john