Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

[dirtyla2000]

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.

funny how you threw the first insult and now go crying to adminesration!WAIT, I WILL GIVE YOU MY MOTHERS NO. YOU COULD CALL HER TOO! I started this thread and it was enjoyable untill it was hijacked by your insults and slammys!when you dont agree, dont degrade,it only exposes your ignorance and prejudice s!

[suicide_squeeze]

"That said, the point you guys need to differentiate between Ray and Vick is that Ray was aquitted from the charges against him....Vick was found quilty.

Therefore, the stigma of what Vick did will never leave his side. Ray can claim he did nothing wrong, and has a juries decision to back it up.....right or wrong as it may be."




Right or wrong as that may be???? I think we might be contradicting ourselves here. I thought we were discussing right versus wrong here. I love dogs, always have and always will. They are incredible creatures and are as loyal and loving as an animal could be. However, to suggest that Ray Lewis can defend himself on the basis of what a jury decided is missing the point. In fact, I would suggest that getting away with being an accomplice to murdering a human being is FAR worse than getting caught killing dogs. If anything, Vick should at least be given the benefit of the doubt over Ray Ray because he will have served his time before playing in the NFL.

If you truley believe that Lewis was innocent, then my argument doesn't hold any water. But if Ray did get away with being an accomplice to a murder, don't you think his penalty should have been more severe than what Vick got? Hell, Lewis got off without a slap on the wrist and there are people here defending him over Michael Vick. Absolutely ridiculous...

I fully expect a thread defending OJ because he was "acquitted" of murdering his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, because a jury said so. At least he had that going for him, prior to commiting armed robbery....

Reed,

What exactly are you trying to say here? Because I don't understand who you singing to.

You have taken three sentences out of what I posted, and you seem to be arguing with.........well, yourself?

I think Ray is a piece of garbage, and I stated so. I also stated that he "got off" of some extremely serious charges. I personally believe that was wrong, but AI wasn't a member of the jury, and didn't witness, hear, or participate in the deliberations. All I can tell you is to me, Ray is garbage.

Vick was accused, and found guilty. Probably because there was so much freaking evidence all over the place, not to mention his friends who "roilled over" on him and told ALL.....he is a convicted felon now. Do I think any more or less of him vs. Ray? DID you READ MT POSTS?

What is your POINT here in quoting three sentences of mine? Are you in some twisted way trying to substantiate anything dirtyla200 is punching out on a keyboard? If so, maybe you should seek some professional help. But don't take what I said out of context, and twist it into some silly misunderstanding on your part.

No, dogs aren't human beings and they shouldn't be treated as such.

They should be treated with MORE respect than humans show one another, because they aren't up to the task of running the world, and the crappy little things that humans do in it.

I have been holding back, and have tried to keep it easy on the administrtors here. What kind of a fool would I look like if I just came out and said "They should SHOOT Vick the F%&K for what he did, to insure he won't continue to do it anymore"? Yeah, I'm sure Chris and Eric would love to come accross that. So I did it in a much more suttle way.

If anybody reading this post thinks dogs don't deserve the best treatment in the world, as ALL OTHER PETS DO who depend on us to live their sweet little lives, then don't cross MY path, because I'd just as soon WASTE YOU than say "Hi".

I hope that's clear enough.

[suicide_squeeze]

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.

AMEN, brother!

I mean, is this guy kidding with these posts or what?

[suicide_squeeze]

God Bless it......I have to work on my typos......it's rediculous already

[reed1216]

suicide_squeeze- First, I want to apologize if you misinterpreted my post as an attack on you. However, to suggest that I am arguing with myself is kind of silly...

I think what I am hearing you say is that dogs should be treated better than human beings because we're capable of doing so. If I'm misinterpreting this, please correct me. If I have it right, I totally disagree. I love dogs, but to say they should be treated better than people treat one another is an interesting statement. I like to think I treat everyone with decency and respect. Maybe, as a community, we should work harder on treating one another better and let the dogs follow...

The reason I quoted a portion of your post is because I disagree with THAT portion of your post. I think we can agree to disagree without suggesting I need professional help. Is that too much to ask?

As for dirtyla and you comparing his statements to mine... I think the only area of agreement I have with him is that we both believe Vick deserves another chance. I don't support the way he (or you for that matter) have been throwing your opinions around, while at the same time ridiculing others who might dare to disagree with you.

I think that we do agree that dogs and all pets deserve to be taken care of properly and given the love they need to be happy animals. I'd just like to think we could have a discussion without getting personal. While I might think some of your views are askew, I imagine others feel the same way with mine. That's okay with me. I'd rather approach those people, say hello and discuss the matter with them, than "WASTE" them.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend...

[chakes89]

"Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such"

and should therefore be killed for amusement? anyway, it's true that dogs aren't like people; unlike vick and many of his pals, i've yet to meet a dog who kills purely to entertain himself. seems even dogs have progressed beyond the sort of reprehensible behavior that still plagues some people.

given that dogs do everything from fight in wars, help the handicapped, keep the borders and airports safe, search for missing people, etc., they're as much a part of society as anyone else. should a dog ever rescue your life, be sure you remember he shouldn't be accorded the same respect as a person.

"They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results"

completely unlike people, right?





rudy.

Who else thought I was talking about these types of dogs?

Nobody?

Thought so

[suicide_squeeze]

suicide_squeeze- First, I want to apologize if you misinterpreted my post as an attack on you. However, to suggest that I am arguing with myself is kind of silly...

I think what I am hearing you say is that dogs should be treated better than human beings because we're capable of doing so. If I'm misinterpreting this, please correct me. If I have it right, I totally disagree. I love dogs, but to say they should be treated better than people treat one another is an interesting statement. I like to think I treat everyone with decency and respect. Maybe, as a community, we should work harder on treating one another better and let the dogs follow...

The reason I quoted a portion of your post is because I disagree with THAT portion of your post. I think we can agree to disagree without suggesting I need professional help. Is that too much to ask?

As for dirtyla and you comparing his statements to mine... I think the only area of agreement I have with him is that we both believe Vick deserves another chance. I don't support the way he (or you for that matter) have been throwing your opinions around, while at the same time ridiculing others who might dare to disagree with you.

I think that we do agree that dogs and all pets deserve to be taken care of properly and given the love they need to be happy animals. I'd just like to think we could have a discussion without getting personal. While I might think some of your views are askew, I imagine others feel the same way with mine. That's okay with me. I'd rather approach those people, say hello and discuss the matter with them, than "WASTE" them.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend...

reed1216,

Thanks for the apology, and accept mine too.

Like I have said many times here before, I am not here to make enemies.

I do, however, become baffled when members misconstru comments and/or twist them into meaning not intended.

I am from the common sense school. Like rudy (jingjammy) stated in an earlier post here, dogs do not go around murdering other animals for their own enjoyment. What more needs to be said about thta statement. I am saying that "dog nature" apparently is better than "human nature". When you stoip and break it all down, how can anyone, let alone you reed, argue this fact?

Look at our politicians who womanize while trying to be elected to office?
Look at the same who do it WHILE IN OFFICE.

Look at the Pastors and Fathers of the so-called Holy religions who molest.

Look at the murderers....the rapists....the wife and child beaters and lolestors....the repeat drunk drivers who kill. Hell, do I go ON?

What about the kidnappers who destroy everything sacred in a family by stealing their babies to sell them overseas as slaves and sex servants? Or the sexual preditors you see on NightLine going after whom they believe are underaged children.


Then, I get on here, and see someone suggesting that a guy who tortures dogs by allowing them no other existence but to get thrown into a pit for a fight-to-the-death......deserves another chance? REALLY?

Yes, we all have our own opinions, and I truly feel I am like the most that know what the difference between right and wrong, and what the true value of "rehabilitation" is. And I would say that I too, reed1216, like a good hearty discussion without attacks. So please, know that I am with you on all counts.

But please don't try to tell me about how rediculous it sounds to want to treat a pet (dog, in our discussion) with more passion than we show ourselves as fellow human beings.

The only time you come accross a dog who is of ill-mannered behavior will be largely for two reasons: If it is sick; If it has been mistreated. Domestic animals have good nature naturally. Therefore they should be treated with care, love, and compassion.

Apparently, many many humans do not. That's all I am saying. And I for one don't care to show much compassion, faith, or otherwise, to the bad charactered a-holes of the world.....especially the privilaged ones who should know better. Some humans, reed, just deserve nothing but a burial.

[aeneas01]

Vick knowingly committed and crime and went to prison as he should have. Too many kids idolize football players and prison. The 2 should never meet. Vick should be banished from the NFL to set an example for everyone.

frankly, i thought an excellent example was already made of vick and a resounding message sent: if you break the law, you can and will go to prison, you can and will do time - regardless of your wealth, fame, popularity or profession. in fact i think the message was not only powerful but also far-reaching, especially where kids are concerned.

re: does vick deserve a second chance to play pro football? imo, sure he does. but what makes this question intriguing is the amount of money vick stands to earn should he get a second chance. i mean would we be having this discussion if the guy happened to stock shelves at walmart for a living? would anyone care in the least if a walmart in buffalo hired him back after he completed his stretch? i doubt it. he would be just another ex-con trying to get on with his life.

but the fact that vick stands to earn millions should he get another chance to play pro ball throws a wrench into the conversation - a thug commits a despicable crime yet at the end of the day emerges smelling like roses and is financially set for life. tough to swallow, doesn't square, justice doesn't seem to prevail. the nfl and/or nfl franchises will ultimately determine vick's fate and that's fine with me, regardless of what road they take. if vick is allowed to play, i will not boycott pro football - thugs will continue to make up a percentage of nfl players with or without vick, something i've grudgingly learned to accept. if vick is not allowed to play, i won't pop the champagne - i'll just chalk it up as yet another sad nfl story of wasted opportunity and talent.

as far as dog fighting is concerned, like most here i find it despicable and reprehensible. and criminal. nonetheless i can't dismiss those that engage in it as depraved, psychotic, future serial killers, etc... the sad and bleak reality is this world, this country even, has simply not progressed morally or culturally at the same pace. i lived outside of the u.s. for over a decade and the abhorrent treatment of animals i witnessed first hand was not the exception, but the rule. and it wasn't at the hands of the criminally insane that these animals suffered.

when i was 12-years-old, living in mexico city, i attended a bullfight. the packed arena filled with the well-heeled and the barefoot did not prepare me for what i saw. an utterly gruesome spectacle that redefined animal torture. before the matador even began, the picadores, on horseback, went to work on the bull's neck with heavy steel spears - the object was to weaken the bull's neck muscles to the point where it could no longer thrust its head/horns effectively. next up, for good measure, entered the bandilleros whose job it was to stab and secure heavy barbed steel posts in the bull's exposed neck muscles. these heavy posts served as perpetual weight that continued to pull at the bull's neck muscles throughout the ordeal, further weakening the bull, its capacity to swing its head, causing intentional albeit controlled loss of blood. all to the utter delight of tens of thousands cheering fans. then and only then did the matodor show his face. to finally slay the bull with a sword. the grand finale? the bloodied and murdered bull was dragged around the arena by horseback rider, and the matador re-entered the ring with the bull's freshly severed ears and tail which he raised to the delirious and adoring crowd. the spectacle is then repeated all over again with a new bull. a spectacle that's alive and well in mexico, spain, france, to name a few.

i'm a dog guy. my dogs have not been pets, they've been important family members. what vick was involved with was horrific. but imo it was an act of a culturally and morally stunted man, an uneducated man, not an act of a depraved sociopath or the criminally insane. he was found guilty and did his time. jmo.

...

[reed1216]

suicide_squeeze- I really appreciate your response to my post. While I disagree with your opinion on some of the things you mention, I think it's appropriate to agree to disagree without any hard feelings.

aeneas01- I couldn't agree more with what you have written. That was a VERY well written post!

[kingjammy24]

robert,

re: vick making millions after-the-fact
i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

re: the "culture" argument.
i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

beyond that, there've been morally reprehensible cultures/subcultures before and playing the culture card hasn't absolved them from being regarded as demented sociopaths. lynchings were a part of southern culture in the early 1900s. were the folks who participated in those depraved lunatics or just some guys trying to hold up their culture? it's little more than a glorified "if everyone's jumping off the bridge then i should do it too" mindset. could millions of mexicans be wrong? millions of germans were so it's certainly possible. a man ought to be able to think for himself even if everyone around him has lost their mind.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

chakes: didn't realize you had broken it down via "types" of dogs. my mistake. not sure what types of dogs aren't an integral part of human society and as such don't deserve the same respect. i'll assume you were clearly referring to hyenas or maybe dingos.

rudy.