Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

[nationals2k9]

But I strongly agree with this stance and wanted to share...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4192628

Thoughts?

[Mr.3000]

I agree 100%. To start keeping players out now, after inducting many of the characters that are in the HOF, would be a double standard. Not to mention it would be ridiculous.

[godwulf]

I guess this makes me "monocrhomatic"...but I couldn't disagree more.

In the past, I'll admit to having had mixed feelings on the subject, but this article, if anything, only serves to push me into the other camp.

"Players reflect their times"? Oh, so I guess that makes this the era when nobody really cares what you do as long as you play well and make money for yourself and your team? Nobody kicked at KKK memberships and monkey testosterone, so let's just forget about having any standards whatsoever?

Officer, why did you stop me?...everybody's speeding on this road.

Comparing a juicing player with an elementary school student taking Ritalin? Suggesting that the HOF voters might be replaced with (among others) "fantasy leaguers and serious baseball bloggers"?

This column could be a parody of PED defenders. If this is all they've got - and it seems pretty comprehensive, with its veritable laundry list of excuses and weaseling (my apologies to weasels, which are actually very cool little animals) - I'm not impressed in the slightest.

[rj_lucas]

Welcome to the slippery slope.

Keep in mind, it's the sportwriters, not some arcane body at the Hall of Fame, that makes these determinations.

The sportwriters crafted fawning tributes to these players for years. Go back and read pieces on Bonds circa 2001-2002 as sportswriters tripped over themselves to see who could lavish the most praise.

Compare those writings with the current line on Bonds et al, and you begin to appreciate this is more about the embarrassment and 'betrayal' of the sportswriters than anything else.

I applaude ESPN for having the courage to run this piece -- one of the first and only rational discussions I have seen on this issue.

If we're going to exclude players from the Hall of Fame because their 'unfair edge' somehow muddies the record books, then let's remove any player with numbers prior to 1947, shall we?

How different would the 'official' record books look if Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige in his prime, etc. etc. had been allowed to compete on equal terms?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[godwulf]

It isn't possible to turn back the clock and start expelling guys from the Hall, either because we're judging them by a different standard than was in play in their day, or because the details and extent of their "transgressions" were not generally known, or for other reasons unrelated (or even related) to their play on the field or personal character.

All we can do is to uphold the rules, as written, today.

To do otherwise is really just attempting to excuse bad behavior - behavior that absolutely should disqualify anyone from being voted into the HOF today - by citing the ethical lapses of athletes (and, perhaps, of sportswriters) of the past.

I don't care what the HOF voters did twenty, forty, sixty years ago - that's out of our hands. What the voters do today, and what the fans call for (and stand for) is our responsibility.

Let future Baseball people look back at this time, and say, "Yeah...that's when they started enforcing the rules. That's when they started doing it the right way."

[joelsabi]

what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...?event_id=3767

Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?

90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado

Total Votes: 10,842

[joelsabi]

Here a good read on HOF voting:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...e=caple/090121

I think the votes should be made public too.

[nationals2k9]

what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...?event_id=3767

Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?

90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado

Total Votes: 10,842

Glavine a little too high and no love for Thome. Don't see why A-Rod is that much higher than Manny and Pujols. I think by the time current players are up for vote the system will make more sense.

[nationals2k9]

Glavine a little too high and no love for Thome. Don't see why A-Rod is that much higher than Manny and Pujols. I think by the time current players are up for vote the system will make more sense.

And this is from Jan '09 which explains most of what I just said.

I'm mainly concerned with 2016-17 time period.

[rj_lucas]

All we can do is to uphold the rules, as written, today.

With all due respect, the rules for Hall of Fame admission are already being upheld, as they are written today:

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/rules.jsp

Don't confuse the rules of the HOF with those of MLB, because they're not the same. The rules for HOF admission have been carefully crafted to avoid subjective issues relating to personal behavior.

If there were a rule stating that use of PEDs, or on-field 'cheating' of any kind, precluded a player from HOF consideration this entire debate would be moot.

How many HOF pitchers have loaded a baseball at some point in their career? How many HOF batters have corked?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/chea...llplayers.html

There's no doubt that many of the PEDs implicated players will fail to make it to the HOF in their first year of eligibility. If that's due to payback from the baseball writers, so be it.

But fast forward 20 years, and if Bonds, Rodriguez, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, Clemens, etc. are not in the HOF, they might as well shut the doors because the HOF will have become invalid. And I say that as someone who has given enough memorabilia to the HOF to have received a lifetime pass.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com