Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away

[mattmueller]

Squeeze:

The facts have clearly been articulated as to why taking a bat is theft.

Save for your expressing your opinion as to added risk spectators take entering a ballgame (which is disclaimed on the back of every ticket and legally irrelevant to property rights), ineptness of a hitter to hold the bat (irrelevant to property rights), the player's salary (irrelevant to property rights), or what is the best public relations move for the player or team (also irrelevant to property rights), you have not provided any evidence to support your illogical claim that title to a bat changes just because it crosses some imaginary line and ends up in the stands.

As indicated in the Bonds ball legal briefs and arguments (which I will assume either you have not read or read and did not comprehend), the only way that title to the property could change is if it is determined that the owner has abandonded that property. To reasonable people, since there is no consistent history of teams or players abandoning bats that enter the stands, and the transfer of the property once it moves to the stands is not codified anywhere (signage, tickets, announcements), when they ask for it back, they are enforcing their rights to the property.

So what does all that mean? If they ask for it bat, they are asking you for their property back. If you determine that you are going to keep the bat, you are stealing it.

[mattmueller]

Sorry, above you should be addressed to Squeeze and other like minded persons. Didn't mean to single anybody out.

[suicide_squeeze]

Squeeze:

The facts have clearly been articulated as to why taking a bat is theft.

Save for your expressing your opinion as to added risk spectators take entering a ballgame (which is disclaimed on the back of every ticket and legally irrelevant to property rights), ineptness of a hitter to hold the bat (irrelevant to property rights), the player's salary (irrelevant to property rights), or what is the best public relations move for the player or team (also irrelevant to property rights), you have not provided any evidence to support your illogical claim that title to a bat changes just because it crosses some imaginary line and ends up in the stands.

As indicated in the Bonds ball legal briefs and arguments (which I will assume either you have not read or read and did not comprehend), the only way that title to the property could change is if it is determined that the owner has abandonded that property. To reasonable people, since there is no consistent history of teams or players abandoning bats that enter the stands, and the transfer of the property once it moves to the stands is not codified anywhere (signage, tickets, announcements), when they ask for it back, they are enforcing their rights to the property.

So what does all that mean? If they ask for it bat, they are asking you for their property back. If you determine that you are going to keep the bat, you are stealing it.

Matt,

What's up? Can't you ever back off and be man about it when you're wrong? I do.

The reference you are talking about in regards to the "Bonds ball" is completely out of context, like ever other aspect of your argument. We are not talking about an argument between two fans, and ownership rights of the ball they both claim to have. Why not get off your soapbox long enough to understand the facts of what you're arguing about before you try to instill your virtues onto someone else while referencing something with no connection.

We are talking about a haphazzard piece of baseball equipment flying into the stands.

My argument is that is it customary that a ball hit into the stands, or a bat that flies into the stands is fair game to keep. I have asked that someone present some evidence in ANY form to prove my opinion wrong. No one has. That's all......

If it were a glove, or a catcher's shin guard or chest protector.....yeah, I would say that is an essential piece to continuing the game and therefore should be given back.

A baseball? A bat?

NOTE TO MLB AND YOUR PLAYERS: IF YOU CAN'T HANG ONTO YOUR BAT AND YOU FLAIL IT INTO THE SEATS......KISS IT GOODBYE LIKE YOUR HOME RUN BALLS, AND MOVE ON! LOVE, THE FANS.

[NYCrulesU]

Matt, you're wasting your breath lol Squeeze is clearly right (because he says so). To hell with decades of teams getting bats back from fans, via an usher and/or team rep. His greed and lust for a piece of game used memorabilia is so overwhelming that he'll ignore all laws of common sense and ballpark etiquette.

[suicide_squeeze]

OK.....here's some interesting info....


I called Dodger Stadium, asked a front office person with clubhouse knowledge, the question: "What is the policy of the Stadium, management, MLB, etc., if a player at bat loses his grip of his bat and it flies into the stands and a fan gets ahold of it, does the fan have to give it back, or is it a souvenir?"

Answer: "Only if the player demands it back. It is his property, as the players buy their own bats. The Dodgers have no rule that the bat be given up, and may be kept as a souvenir if the player does not request it back."

I took it one step further, and asked what would happen to the fan if he refused to hand it over if the player wanted it back.

Answer: "He would most likely be offered another item in exchange for it by the player. This is usually what happens if the player wants it back."

I asked further...."What if he still refused? Is he breaking any laws?"

Answer: "The player would probably let them keep it, but there is a chance they may be escorted out of the park."

I ended by asking....."Could the fan be permanently banned by Dodger management for not returning the bat?"

Answer: "No, not for something like that. There is nothing they instigated to deserve bannishment from the park. To be honest, in most cases where a bat flies into the crowd, the player is just happy if no one was hurt. If the fan returns the bat with no hesitation, the player usually will send something to them like a signed ball or another bat. Other times, they may be so relieved that they just let the fan keep it. I remember one time, years ago, a case where someone was hurt. After they were taken to receive medical attention, the player let them keep the bat and signed it with a personal note of apology to the fan.

He couldn't recall the player, or what year it was. Too bad, I'd love to see that bat!

Then I called Angel Stadium.....asked the same fiorst question.....

ANSWER: If a bat flies into the stands and a fan ends up with it, it's a souvenir. The fans are immediately escorted to GUEST SERVICES where the bat is recorded and held in safe keeping for that fan until the game is over. Then they may retrieve their souvenir at that time before leaving the park. The reason that policy is in place is because there are no bats allowed in the stands during the game.


So, mattmueller, your turn. Let's hear some facts about your "theft" theory, please?


Like I said, "Possession is nine tenth's of the law". If one is lucky enough to catch a bat hurling into the seats as a fan at a game, it is apparently up to the player to allow the fan to keep it. But it sure seems like, as I have eluded to from the beginning, if you are astute enough to say "It's MINE!", you have about a 99% chance of keeping it. Don't let those meannies in Boston, the one's wearing the "SECURITY" shirts in Boston who have apparently scared the manhood out of eisenreich take the players bat from you. Because let's face the facts, forum members, the player, if confronted with "NO, it's MINE" is not going to have you manhadled and the bat pried from your grip. Thay would never live it down. And for a $60.00 bat, they'd have to be crazy to even think it.

[Vintagedeputy]

God I love this forum....

[cjclong]

Mattmueller is still correct on this theft theory. The Dodger person said the player would probably LET HIM KEEP IT. The operative phrase here is LET. If the player or team own the bat it is theirs. They decide whether they want to give it away or not, but it is THEIR DECISION to let a fan keep it or not, not the fan's. A bat a player tosses into the stands accidentally is not being given away. The player or team CAN give it away, but they don't HAVE to. Squeeze talks about the player throwing his bat at a fan. The player is not throwing his bat at a fan. He accidentally let go of it. If a player threw his bat at a fan it would be assault or attempted assault. When the Rangers Frankie Francisco threw a chair at a fan in Oakland several years ago he was filed on for assault and convicted. If a player was signing autographs before a game for fans and had his glove under his arm as some do and accidentally dropped it into the stands a fan would not have the right to say "its in the stands" and run off with it. The same with a bat that accidentally goes there. A player can give a glove or bat or anything else to a fan. But a fan cannot take something that is not given. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great for fans to get to keep the bat and I hope that is what most teams do. I saw Josh Hamilton throw a bat far into the stands at a Rangers game this year. The fan got to keep it and the usher only came over to check to be sure no one was hurt. That was GREAT! But if security comes to get a bat and you fight them for it you are going to find your "possssion is nine tenths of the law" is pure fiction. I really advise against getting in a fight as you are likely to face serious criminal charges with no valid legal defense.

[Mauer7]

That Dodgers rep is full of crap. The players don't buy their own bats. The TEAM buys them. I know this for a fact.

[suicide_squeeze]

Matt, you're wasting your breath lol Squeeze is clearly right (because he says so). To hell with decades of teams getting bats back from fans, via an usher and/or team rep. His greed and lust for a piece of game used memorabilia is so overwhelming that he'll ignore all laws of common sense and ballpark etiquette.

Actually, I feel like I am one who is wasting mine.

If you guys want to stop all the hostility long enough to remember we are all here to enjoy our hobby, and to share our knowledge with eachother to make that experience better, then maybe we can get something accomplished here.

NYCdrulesonU.....my greed and lust for game used items is satisfied by pulling out my check book and paying for them after working hard to earn the funds in the first place, not for some other silly non-fact you choose to throw out in anger because you disagree.

We are referring to a rare happenstance in the event one of us was lucky enough to be at the end of the flailing "rainbow" (um...."bat", eisenreich.....is what I was eluding to). Ballpark ettiquette? That a whole different story......which I looked into, made a call, and received some answers on. Maybe you could take a moment to read the answers I received, and learn something from it instead of picking "sides" and coming in like a hand grenade.

We're here to share knowledge and experiences we've had in the game used hobby. Agreement, or disagreement, on an issue is a healthy thing. A good debate is educational for everyone who takes the time to read it.

But to state I am going against "laws of common sense" are laughable. I wrote the book on common sense partner. If you want to go down that road, expect to be changing tires often.

All I did was ask for some proof that I was wrong in my opinion on a theory of a bat going into the crowd, and what one can rightfully do in the event they are confronted with that circumstance. What i received was statements that were incorrect in fact, that eventually grew into an angry confrontation. All that will lead to is "Last edited...." exerpts, so why bother?

Bring us some intelligent banter. Add to everyone's intellect.....not their emotional dark side.

Peace fellow forum members, let's keep it friendly.

[suicide_squeeze]

That Dodgers rep is full of crap. The players don't buy their own bats. The TEAM buys them. I know this for a fact.

OK, I'll happily defer this "fact" to someone who can properly answer it beyond any of our understandings.....

Is BMH available to share some insight here? BRIAN, please, what is the truth on this? Do the players buy their bats, or does the team they are contracted to play for pay for them?

Possibly the answer lies (again) somewhere inbetween? Maybe they are purchased up to a certain allotted amount (dollars or count) for the player, and anything additional bats ordered is the players responsibility?
I do not know the answer to this.

We may need to ask Brian on a whole separate thread, because he may not be reading this one....