New AMI Model = Seller's Authenticate Own Lots?

[aeneas01]

Re: New AMI Model = Seller's Authenticate Own Lots?

practically the only universal truth about every consigner is that they want to maximize the hammer price of their item and one way to do so is to present the item as impressively as possible. this requires skill, knowledge and talent that many don't have...

given the skill, knowledge and talent apparently required to ready a lot for auction, it's kinda hard to believe that ebay ever got off the ground, eh my friend? 23 million ebay listings as we speak, who knew there was so much damn talent out there?!?

here are four photos, from four different lots, snagged from a couple of major sports memorabilia auction houses - they represent the only photo that was featured in each lot and are presented exactly as they were at the auction houses (same size, rez, etc.). call me crazy, but i don't think ansel or henri knocked these things out - in fact i'm pretty certain my 10-year-old daughter, equipped with your 4mp powershot, could best the effort.....

lot sold for $170,000


lot sold for $31,000


lot sold for $17,000


lot sold for $13,000



and here are four lot descriptions taken from a couple of major sports memorabilia auction houses, presented in their entirety. not sure how much creative literary talent, skill or knowledge it would take to do the same....

1. Flannel jersey with Tim McAuliffe tag in the collar. The words "Red Sox" are spelled out in felt on the front and Kramer's number "18" are applied in felt to the back. A small fabric swatch with the year "48" is sewn to the tail. Vintage number change. Condition: No holes or tears but does show heavy use with wear evident on the letters, numbers and piping.

2. These professional model weapons were turned to the specifications of their namesakes, Maris and Mantle: 1.) 1964-1967 Adirondack "307D" block-letter ("MARIS TYPE") model (32.8oz/34", 11" crack); 2.) 1968-1970 Adirondack "288D" block-letter ("MANTLE TYPE") model (35.8oz/34"); and 3.) 1973-1975 Hillerich & Bradsby "K55" Mickey Mantle signature model (30.6oz/35"). Heavy to excessive use throughout. Individual photo LOAs from John Taube PSA/DNA.

3. This head gear of the Bills offensive lineman Sherman White during his last season in the NFL shows nice use with scuffs and has the number "83" on the back in sticker form. Rawlings size 7 1/8-7 1/4 helmet has 1983 recertification sticker inside ear flap. Complete with padding inside. This also was the last year for the dominant white background color of the Buffalo helmet, replaced by the present red.

4. Presented is a white and black Everlast satin robe signed by Muhammad Ali. The black Sharpie signature of the former heavyweight champion is located above the lower left pocket and grades (“6”) with moderate bleeding. This handsome garment features excellent construction, gorgeous material and is accompanied by an auction LOA from James Spence Authentications.

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granted, if your looking for "creamily delicious" then you would certainly have to call in the heavy hitters! seriously rudy, all kidding aside and ignoring the extreme examples i included above, i understand your point completely. i really do. this kind of work can be a chore, especially if done carefully and right - i know, we're in the process of doing just that right now. but you can't tell me that there aren't consignors out there that are jumping at the opportunity to finally be able to sell their items through a major auction house on their own terms - with their own descriptions, evaluations and photos. there are, i've spoken to a couple.

is it an enormous amount of work to competently prepare 5-10 of your own lots for auction? does it require a unique and special level of skill, knowledge and talent? no, not when you're talking about experienced collectors, which most of those consignors are i believe. to tell you the truth rudy, i'm a little surprised to hear that you think so highly of the collective skills/talents of paid evaluators given the brutal time you often give them!

a) what good is it to bidders if AMI is only collecting their cash but not the consigner's goods? b) IF ami was operating as a proper escrow service, then your suggestion that consigners could "..decide whether or not they wish to honor the deal once the auction is over, once they receive their cash" would be impossible.

a) exactly b) who said ami was operating as a proper escrow service?

tell you what.. offer your own customers an "absurd opportunity" to become "willing and active participants" in the food they eat. how? make them cook it all themselves....

funny, but not an accurate analogy - customers are the bidders, not the consignors. how about this - let's say i owe my oyster wholesaler a bunch of money. why would he continue to broker through me? well i sell a lot of oysters, have an established oyster clientele. and not only does he want to get the money back i owe him but he also wants to sell oysters. so i offer to split my oyster profits with him (buyers premium + sellers premium) to pay down my debt and tell him i won't inspect them when they come in, won't check out the lot tag to ensure they are what he says they are (which we normally do religiously). further, i'll allow him to bring me my order each day and pick up what i don't use at the end of the day to ensure that i don't accumulate an inventory that i can't pay for. i would say that would be a compelling proposition and that he would be interested in being a willing and active participant...

if an item has a hidden reserve and the reserve is ultimately not reached, can the auction house/consigner still sell the item to the highest bidder? if so, then wouldn't placing an astronomical hidden reserve (say $10 million) enable the auction house to bid throughout the entire auction until the very end? sure the hidden reserve isn't met but if it's hidden, noone knows (except the auction houes and consigner tee hee) and the auction house/consigner are free to sell it to the highest (inflated) bid. the item was constantly bid up by the auction house but it's all legal because it was never technically "in play". the auction house can bid on an item all it likes, and view bidder's max bids, as long as they never put the item into play which they can do simply by setting an astronomical hidden reserve.

exactly.

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[kingjammy24]

Re: New AMI Model = Seller's Authenticate Own Lots?

"given the skill, knowledge and talent apparently required to ready a lot for auction, it's kinda hard to believe that ebay ever got off the ground, eh my friend? 23 million ebay listings as we speak, who knew there was so much damn talent out there?!?"

there isn't. it's well known that ebay listings typically fetch noticeably lower hammer prices on similar items than auction houses. if it didn't, there'd be no reason to consign to an auction house. secondly, ebay's substantially lower premiums mean that consumers on both sides of the coin don't have the same expectations as they would if they were paying the typical 20/20. they don't have the same expectations and consequently they don't pay as much. apples and oranges. we were discussing an auction house.

the operating environments and factors for success for ebay vs auction houses are different.

"here are four photos, from four different lots.."

is the implication here that the lots would not have received higher bids with better presentation?

"this kind of work can be a chore, especially if done carefully and right - i know, we're in the process of doing just that right now."

why bother? as you said, ebay's successful. 23 million listings. give your daughter a polaroid and call it a day.

"you can't tell me that there aren't consignors out there that are jumping at the opportunity to finally be able to sell their items through a major auction house on their own terms - with their own descriptions, evaluations and photos. there are, i've spoken to a couple."

the main reason auction houses fetch higher prices than ebay is because of their percieved added-value; specifically, professional presentation and authentication. if AMI has eliminated those factors, what seperates them from ebay? the fact that they have 1/1000th the audience or their 20% buyer's premium vs. ebay's 0%? that is, once you eliminate the value-added features that enable auction houses to collect higher hammer prices, what exactly is the point of consigning to AMI? you say it's the opportunity to write their own descriptions, perform their own authentications and take their own photos. big deal, you can do all of that on ebay while reaching a substantially bigger market and you don't have to deal with victor moreno or kieta. you're no longer going to get the auction house premium hammer price once people realize AMI is more of a third-rate ebay than a traditional auction house. so if consigners are no longer receiving the auction house premium from AMI what's the point?

beyond that, i'm curious behind the real motivations of these consigners you mention. why would a consigner prefer their own photography to that of a professionals? why would a consigner want their item not to have third-party authentication when the general consensus in this hobby is that it increases hammer price? i can see why they'd want to write their own descriptions but i have trouble understanding legit reasoning behind the others. did roger gibson really feel that the only way to do his jerseys justice was to have a brick-wall background? or that collectors would certainly pay more for his jerseys if they knew that they were authenticated by the same person who owned them? undoubtedly roger is a knowledgable NFL collector but once you start authenticating your own items, your opinions can no longer be taken as seriously. dave bushing has been down that path. obviously i can't read roger's mind but was it really the ability to take his own photos and authenticate his own jerseys that sold him on AMI?

anyway, in this particular instance with AMI, there's more to it than simply consigners selling on their own terms. there's the entire issue of dealing with a company with a long, sordid history of customer dissatisfaction on multiple levels and that's what i meant when i questioned why anyone would do business with them. i understand the terms seem attractive to some but to me, there are no terms attractive enough to deal with victor moreno/kieta.

"let's say i owe my oyster wholesaler a bunch of money. why would he continue to broker through me?.."

as opposed to suing you, collecting full payment plus any damages incurred and never having to deal with you again? i don't know.
you sell oysters and have an established clientele. big deal, there are others i can sell to, receive prompt payment in full and not incur the headaches of dealing with lying deadbeats. for me, life is too short to deal with people like that regardless of what terms they promise. i do understand that if i was the sort of wholesaler who deliberately didn't want his oysters inspected, then i'd choose you. however, roger doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has to hide his oysters.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: New AMI Model = Seller's Authenticate Own Lots?

apples and oranges. we were discussing an auction house.

my bad, i thought we were discussing the tremendously arduous task of taking a photo of an item and describing it - and the tremendous level of skill, talent and knowledge required to pull something like that off!

is the implication here that the lots would not have received higher bids with better presentation?

heck no! i thought $170,000 for that flannel was a steal, dirt cheap - obviously the single photo doomed it from the start!

why bother? as you said, ebay's successful. 23 million listings. give your daughter a polaroid and call it a day.

an interesting thought indeed - but mom would probably balk, the school thing and all... perhaps during a summer auction? we'll see.

if AMI has eliminated those factors, what seperates them from ebay?

i'll tell ya one thing that separates them - ebay lots don't claim to have been authenticated by the "100% authentication team" when they haven't!

what exactly is the point of consigning to AMI? you say it's the opportunity to write their own descriptions, perform their own authentications and take their own photos. big deal.

so now you have me saying that it's the "opportunity" to take your own photos, dictate your own spiels and stamp your own lots that's the rub... before you had me saying that it was the "joy" of taking your own photos, etc., etc... oy vey!

as i've mentioned a couple of times before, here's the the point of consigning to ami if you're owed money:

1. you can work your own lot descriptions (and all that this implies).
2. you can evaluate your own item(s) (and all that this implies).
3. you can take your own photos (and all that this implies).
4. ami will place hidden (secret) reserves on your lot(s).
5. ami will bid your lot(s) up to the hidden (secret) reserve.
6. ami will create the illusion of activity, interest and value in your lot(s) by bidding it up to the hidden reserve.
7. ami will allow you to hold onto your lot(s), so there's no risk of losing it.
8. ami will not require that your lot(s) pass a pro evaluation.
9. ami will imply that your lot(s) have been evaluated by their "100% authentic team" by including this reference on each lot page.
10. ami will not reveal these details to the bidding audience. or at least not make them very apparent.

so you see rudy, the "opportunity" and/or "joy" of dictating your own lot description, stamping your own lots and presenting whichever photo you feel best tells the story you want to tell is just part of the point in consigning to ami.

you're no longer going to get the auction house premium hammer price once people realize AMI is more of a third-rate ebay than a traditional auction house.

i think that's obvious - but what's equally obvious, at least to me, is the window hasn't closed yet. and it's time to get while the gettin's good....

beyond that, i'm curious behind the real motivations of these consigners you mention... why would a consignor want their item not to have third-party authentication when the general consensus in this hobby is that it increases hammer price?

who says an ami consignor is not going to benefit from a third-party authentication in terms of hammer price? at the bottom of each ami lot a bidder will find this: authenticator - 100% authentic team.

...but once you start authenticating your own items, your opinions can no longer be taken as seriously.

i disagree rudy. if i was in the market for a late '80s, early '90s blue jays shirt do you think i would hesitate buying one from you if you told me it was authentic, showed me why it was authentic, authenticated it? of course not. perhaps that's just me but i don't think so - i believe everyone that knows you would do the same based on the well-earned respect they have for your knowledge in that area. like most things, i think it's a case by case sitch....

obviously i can't read roger's mind but was it really the ability to take his own photos and authenticate his own jerseys that sold him on AMI?

i certainly won't speak for roger, but i think it's abundantly clear that ami offered owed consignors quite a few incentives...

as opposed to suing you, collecting full payment plus any damages incurred and never having to deal with you again...

yeah, nothing to that suing game - especially when you're out of state. easy money. pick up the phone and it's done. and it won't cost you a thing 'cause attorneys are lining up to take these cases on a contingency basis. mama mia rudy... the bleak reality is the best a consignor could hope for in a sitch like this would be a speedy settlement that he could stomach - out of which he would have to cover his attorneys fees. screw a settlement and push for trial? better have a sense of adventure, deep pockets and lots of time on your hands - real court 'ain't people's court! so what's another option? giving the debtor a chance to pay in full....

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