Ty Cobb records from the 1920's

[MSpecht]

I certainly will Kevin...

Hopefully we will be able to get some additional information within the next week or so.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[sforaker]

Great thread, guys.

Mike - since you mentioned that Joe Sewell used Ty Cobb model bats, I'd like your thoughts on a very well known Ty Cobb bat in the hobby. This bat I am referring to is a Ty Cobb professonal model bat, 1924-28 labeling period, 34.3 inches, 41.6 oz., Cobb characteristics (white tape and tobacco juice), provenance from Joe Sewell's family, and is inscribed "given to me in 1925 by Joe Sewell." It has been graded a "10" by both MEARS and PSA/DNA. My question is, what would make you comfortable that this bat was used by Cobb and not (solely) by Sewell? Would you rely solely on the classic Cobb characteristics or is there something in the H&B records that you would find helpful?

Thanks.

Scott

[MSpecht]

Hi Scott--

A great question and a good bat to use as an example of what can be either determined or logically deduced through a search of the existing documented records.

To start, let's check out Cobb's model bats. In the earliest existing documented orders from 1920 through 1928, there are references to "His Model" in 1920, 1921, and 1922. There are references to "His Original Model" in 1922 and 1923. There are references to "His Latest Model 5-5-24" in 1925, and references to "His Old Ones" in 1927 and 1928. What does this mean ?? How many models are actually referenced here?

First, it is logical to assume that "His Original Model" refers to a bat diagrammed on his card and referenced as "His Original Cobb" (this diagrammed bat is indexed at 34.5 inches.) The reference to "His Model" is not quite as clear. In 2 orders found for 1922, the first order is referenced as "His Model" and the second is referenced as "His Original Model." Does that suggest two separate models, or was it just the H & B employee's shorthand in recording shipments? That is uncertain, and a case could be made either way. What is clearer is the 1925 shipment of "His Latest Model 5-5-24" as a model made to his specifications off a model likely returned to H & B on 5-5-1924 (remember, the annual journals recording shipments from 1920 through 1929 do not include the year 1924.) Finally, the references to "His Old Ones" are apparent and logical references to "His Original Cobb" above.

So far we have orders of "His Original Cobb" between at least 1922 and 1923 that are indexed at 34.5 inches, which is consistent with the subject bat (which is actually measured at 34.375 inches) and at least one other model, "His Latest Model 5-5-24" for which we have no specified established length. The possible third model "His Model," assuming (for sake of argument) that it is not "His Original Cobb," also is of unknown length. The point here is that during that label period, and specirfically during that portion of his career (mid-1920's), there is documented evidence of shipments of bats going to Cobb in lengths that are consistent with the length of the subject bat.

In terms of weight, the subject bat is a hefty 41.6 ounces. In Cobb's existing records, weights in excess of 40 ounces are recorded in 1921, 1922, 1923, 1925, 1927, and 1928. Additionally, his H & B display bat is 34.5 inches and 42 ounces. As the complete documented weight range of bats shipped to Cobb in existing records is 35 ounces (1925) to 42 ounces (1922, 1923, and 1927), there is no question that the weight of the subject bat is consistent with Cobb's ordering pattern.

Now let's look at Joe Sewell's existing documented records. First, it is clear that Joe Sewell favored Kork Grip bats (see Expert's Corner blog "H & B Model 40k, Model 250, and Bobby Kennedy" ) as at least half of his 20 documented orders between 1920 and 1929 were for Kork Grip bats. Most orders between 1920 and 1926 were for either Kork Grip Doc Gessler model bats or "His (Sewell's) 4-25-23" which was made off an unidentified "Kork Model Sent In." Length is not specified on those models in existing records, and weight ranged from a high of 40 ounces in 1921 and 1922 to a range between 36 to 38 ounces from 1922 to 1926.

When did Sewell first order Cobb model bats? Sewell's first shipment of "Old Ty Cobb" bats is dated 5/18/26. Those bats, as noted above, were indexed at 34.5 inches. The next reference is 4/10/26 and reads "Ty Cobb / 38 - 40 oz." Then, on 4/3/29 the entry reads "His Ty Cobb / 38-40 oz." The switch from "Ty Cobb" to "His Ty Cobb" would generally indicate that some modification (length, knob, etc.) was made to an indexed "Ty Cobb" model at the request of, in this case, Joe Sewell, and now became referenced as "His Ty Cobb." Less frequently that notation referenced a certain point when the player's name was now branded on the other player's indexed model bat. The only clue here is that when a bat was shipped to Joe Sewell om 8/1/77, presumably as representative of his preferred model during his career, it was a 35 inch C28, which was one of the indexed Cobb models modified to 35 inches in length. That is only speculation, however, and has no real bearing on this situartion.

So what is the answer? Here is a Ty Cobb signature hand-turned professional model bat, with correct specifications of length and weight for the period for Ty Cobb, and also with length and weight specifications reasonably close to those documented for Joe Sewell during the same period. that is possibly a model that Sewell is documented as having ordered during the labeling period, and which eventually became his bat of choice from 1926 to the end of his career.

At this point, individual player characteristics become key. Both the nearly 9 inches of taped handle and dark application of tobacco juice are identified Cobb game used characteristics. The additional inscription by Joe Sewell, which reads "Given to me in 1925 by Ty Cobb, Joe Sewell" is additional provenance that, when combined with the specific game used characteristics of this bat and the existing documented records of this bat, are compelling and lead to a logical and reasoned conclusion that the bat was used professionally by Ty Cobb prior to its acquisition by Joe Sewell. Whether Sewell also used the bat during his professional career for a period after its acquisition from Cobb in unable to be determined, and, in my opinion, should not lessen a collector's comfort level with this specific bat.

Thanks for the question, Scott.

Mike Jackitout&@aol.com

[jboosted92]

Hi Scott--

A great question and a good bat to use as an example of what can be either determined or logically deduced through a search of the existing documented records.

To start, let's check out Cobb's model bats. In the earliest existing documented orders from 1920 through 1928, there are references to "His Model" in 1920, 1921, and 1922. There are references to "His Original Model" in 1922 and 1923. There are references to "His Latest Model 5-5-24" in 1925, and references to "His Old Ones" in 1927 and 1928. What does this mean ?? How many models are actually referenced here?

First, it is logical to assume that "His Original Model" refers to a bat diagrammed on his card and referenced as "His Original Cobb" (this diagrammed bat is indexed at 34.5 inches.) The reference to "His Model" is not quite as clear. In 2 orders found for 1922, the first order is referenced as "His Model" and the second is referenced as "His Original Model." Does that suggest two separate models, or was it just the H & B employee's shorthand in recording shipments? That is uncertain, and a case could be made either way. What is clearer is the 1925 shipment of "His Latest Model 5-5-24" as a model made to his specifications off a model likely returned to H & B on 5-5-1924 (remember, the annual journals recording shipments from 1920 through 1929 do not include the year 1924.) Finally, the references to "His Old Ones" are apparent and logical references to "His Original Cobb" above.

So far we have orders of "His Original Cobb" between at least 1922 and 1923 that are indexed at 34.5 inches, which is consistent with the subject bat (which is actually measured at 34.375 inches) and at least one other model, "His Latest Model 5-5-24" for which we have no specified established length. The possible third model "His Model," assuming (for sake of argument) that it is not "His Original Cobb," also is of unknown length. The point here is that during that label period, and specirfically during that portion of his career (mid-1920's), there is documented evidence of shipments of bats going to Cobb in lengths that are consistent with the length of the subject bat.

In terms of weight, the subject bat is a hefty 41.6 ounces. In Cobb's existing records, weights in excess of 40 ounces are recorded in 1921, 1922, 1923, 1925, 1927, and 1928. Additionally, his H & B display bat is 34.5 inches and 42 ounces. As the complete documented weight range of bats shipped to Cobb in existing records is 35 ounces (1925) to 42 ounces (1922, 1923, and 1927), there is no question that the weight of the subject bat is consistent with Cobb's ordering pattern.

Now let's look at Joe Sewell's existing documented records. First, it is clear that Joe Sewell favored Kork Grip bats (see Expert's Corner blog "H & B Model 40k, Model 250, and Bobby Kennedy" ) as at least half of his 20 documented orders between 1920 and 1929 were for Kork Grip bats. Most orders between 1920 and 1926 were for either Kork Grip Doc Gessler model bats or "His (Sewell's) 4-25-23" which was made off an unidentified "Kork Model Sent In." Length is not specified on those models in existing records, and weight ranged from a high of 40 ounces in 1921 and 1922 to a range between 36 to 38 ounces from 1922 to 1926.

When did Sewell first order Cobb model bats? Sewell's first shipment of "Old Ty Cobb" bats is dated 5/18/26. Those bats, as noted above, were indexed at 34.5 inches. The next reference is 4/10/26 and reads "Ty Cobb / 38 - 40 oz." Then, on 4/3/29 the entry reads "His Ty Cobb / 38-40 oz." The switch from "Ty Cobb" to "His Ty Cobb" would generally indicate that some modification (length, knob, etc.) was made to an indexed "Ty Cobb" model at the request of, in this case, Joe Sewell, and now became referenced as "His Ty Cobb." Less frequently that notation referenced a certain point when the player's name was now branded on the other player's indexed model bat. The only clue here is that when a bat was shipped to Joe Sewell om 8/1/77, presumably as representative of his preferred model during his career, it was a 35 inch C28, which was one of the indexed Cobb models modified to 35 inches in length. That is only speculation, however, and has no real bearing on this situartion.

So what is the answer? Here is a Ty Cobb signature hand-turned professional model bat, with correct specifications of length and weight for the period for Ty Cobb, and also with length and weight specifications reasonably close to those documented for Joe Sewell during the same period. that is possibly a model that Sewell is documented as having ordered during the labeling period, and which eventually became his bat of choice from 1926 to the end of his career.

At this point, individual player characteristics become key. Both the nearly 9 inches of taped handle and dark application of tobacco juice are identified Cobb game used characteristics. The additional inscription by Joe Sewell, which reads "Given to me in 1925 by Ty Cobb, Joe Sewell" is additional provenance that, when combined with the specific game used characteristics of this bat and the existing documented records of this bat, are compelling and lead to a logical and reasoned conclusion that the bat was used professionally by Ty Cobb prior to its acquisition by Joe Sewell. Whether Sewell also used the bat during his professional career for a period after its acquisition from Cobb in unable to be determined, and, in my opinion, should not lessen a collector's comfort level with this specific bat.

Thanks for the question, Scott.

Mike Jackitout&@aol.com

With that said (and not being controversial in anyway), wouldnt some say, that labeling,weight,length are alll important, but PLAYER CHARACTERISTICS Trump them all??? Now, dont get me wrong, if there was a 31 inch Cobb bat weighing 28 ounces, i dont care if it had his fingernails in it..i wouldnt buy it, but.. when all things even... I guess that should be true...yes/no?

[ghostkid]

Mike,

Thanks for your comments. By the way, nice eye on catching that Crack of the Bat photo on page 44. It's quite interesting and I hope you will share with me any pertinent info you may learn from the photographer and/or auther of the book.

Kevin

Hi Mike,

Have you heard back from the author and/or photographer from the Crack of the Bat photo on page 44? It looks to me like the tag says 34", but its tough to tell for sure.

Kevin

[jboosted92]

Hi Mike,

Have you heard back from the author and/or photographer from the Crack of the Bat photo on page 44? It looks to me like the tag says 34", but its tough to tell for sure.

Kevin

If you also notice, there appears to be ANOTHER 34 " right above the bat!

Also, in M. Fogels collection he owns a side-written 34 inch Ty Cobb bat. (according to the LOA.. actually 34.125, but ordered 34)