2005 Pujols game used bat

[trsent]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

...and it is how issues and discussions such as this one have flowed that people do not return to the forum.

A dealer/collector has an item with a letter that they consider good, and the forum has other views. It is tough for all because most collectors and dealers believe if they have authentication from a major (PSA/DNA, MEARS, Grey Flannel, etc.) player then their item is legitimate.

The general views of this forum in that a letter as such is just a piece of paper and generally worthless. Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords.

I feel sorry for Jonathan, a new user to this forum who already has a bad taste in his mouth, and his item appears legitimate!

[bat_master]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Hey everyone,

I'm not looking to bash anyone and that includes PSA/DNA and the bat's owner, Jonathan. First and foremost I'm not an expert and don't claim to be.

However, a PSA/DNA or any other company's COA should not be considered the "Wonka Golden Ticket" and isn't ever the end-all be-all of collecting especially when there are cases like this one where other circumstances should be considered.

As Joel said in his last post "Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords."

I couldn't have said that better myself. I don't have any issues with this bat at all. Is it an Albert Pujols game used bat? I would say definitely. But can all of that use be attributed to Albert? Likely not, though no one can say for certain.

It seems to me as an outsider looking in that Jonathan has put so much stock into the COA that he is not willing to consider any other opinion or input on this bat or acknowledge that some (or most) of the use on this bat could be attributed to a player other than Albert Pujols.

Just my two and a half cents

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com

[allstarsplus]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Hey everyone, I'm not looking to bash anyone and that includes PSA/DNA and the bat's owner, Jonathan. First and foremost I'm not an expert and don't claim to be. However, a PSA/DNA or any other company's COA should not be considered the "Wonka Golden Ticket" and isn't ever the end-all be-all of collecting especially when there are cases like this one where other circumstances should be considered.
As Joel said in his last post "Though the 3rd party authenticators may make mistakes, there appears to be no issues with this bat other than that it may have been used for minimal game at-bats by Albert and another teammate may have used it afterwords."
I couldn't have said that better myself. I don't have any issues with this bat at all. Is it an Albert Pujols game used bat? I would say definitely. But can all of that use be attributed to Albert? Likely not, though no one can say for certain. It seems to me as an outsider looking in that Jonathan has put so much stock into the COA that he is not willing to consider any other opinion or input on this bat or acknowledge that some (or most) of the use on this bat could be attributed to a player other than Albert Pujols. Just my two and a half cents

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com

Tim summed it up well. I think the bat in question appears to be the same bat that sold for $840 about 4 months ago.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Albert-Pujols-Game-Used-Bat_W0QQitemZ8760181037QQcategoryZ60596QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Pujols market has definitely gotten hotter since the season started so I think Jonathan has a marketable bat certainly above that amount from 4 months ago.

As always, thanks to Jeff at Birdbats for his great research!

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Hello,
I Just Would Like To Say I Do "consider" Everyone's Opinions On The Bat. It Has Been Interesting Reading The Many Posts, And The Many "opinions" On My Bat. I Never Claimed To Be A Bat Expert. I Am Just A Collector, Who Trusts The Psa/dna Letter I Have To Go With The Bat. When I List The Bat Again - I Am Not Going The Say "could Have Been Used By Some Unknown Other Player, In The Listing." Or Used By Pujols 5 Times Someone Else 250 Times! As I Have No Proof Of Any Of That. I Only Saw A Pujols Game Used Psa/dna Bat With Bids Up To $4,000.00+, So I Thought I Would List Mine For $2,000.00. When I See A Pujols Bat Selling For $10,000, I Will List Mine For $5,000- Maybe Then I Will Get A Bid!!

I Would Like To Thank All The "nice" Post's!
I Am Amassed By All The Views- Says Somthing About Pujols!
Hope He Gets Off The Dl Soon------------------

[bat_master]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Hi Everyone,

Jonathan's last post about the relisting the bat really got me thinking and I'm hoping we can avoid anyone calling a relisting "deception by omission" if he doesn't disclose that the majority of the use could have been caused by a player other than Albert.

I think the majority of us would agree that this bat is a genuine Albert Pujols game used bat, thus making the LOA correct as issued for this item. Seems like this would almost fall into a "gray area" in which the use is unproven as having been caused by any specific player and the LOA should almost have an asterisk attached to it. But should it? The LOA calls it a Game Used Albert Pujols bat...exactly what the buyer is getting!

Joe Collector is not going to have access to the wealth of information we have and likely would also not have made note of every Albert Pujols at bat. Does anyone else know of any other player in the major leagues from any era in which the bat used in every at-bat all season are kept track of? I can't think of a single player which from a collector's standpoint makes Albert Pujols a very unique player.

If we didn't have that knowledge and thus did not suspect that this bat could only have been used in minimal at-bats by Pujols and many by another player would we then have taken issue with this bat? I highly doubt it.

To summarize, the members of this forum have a great many resources at our disposal and it is up to us to do everything in our power to be responsible and knowledgeable collectors (and sellers).

When Jonathan relists this bat the buyer will be getting a nice game used Albert Pujols bat with a PSA/DNA letter. Joe Collector will be happy...even though the other 10% of the collecting community that has additional knowledge may take issue with it. In general, its a nice bat that simply may not sell for as high as what is desired.

Tim Byington
www.tjsportsmn.com

[Birdbats]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Tim,

I think there's a fine line here. It certainly is an Albert Pujols pro model game bat. It certainly shows game use. But, I think saying it is an "Albert Pujols game-used bat" suggests to most people it was used by Albert. There's no proof Albert used this bat before someone else, if at all. All we know is that, in its present state, it shows much more use and pine tar than one would expect on a bat used by Albert. For that reason, I think the LOA may be misleading.

I had a conversation once with a well-known bat authenticator regarding Mark McGwire bats. I asked why he wrote LOAs on bats that clearly did not exhibit the desired usage traits of McGwire's Cardinals-era bats. He pointed out that he was careful to word his LOAs in such a way that he never said the bats were used by McGwire... only that they were McGwire bats and they showed game use. It's a fine line, but it's worth noting.

You also ask whether anyone would even take issue with this bat if not for the knowledge that he used Rawlings bats in just five plate appearances last season. I would hope that before anyone invests hundreds or thousands of dollars in a Pujols bat that they'd at least know he rarely uses Rawlings, he doesn't use a heavy coat of pine tar, he typically doesn't use bats to this extreme and he often gives bats to other players.

There's one other thing that bothers me about this bat that nobody has brought up. In the PSA/DNA letter, it says, "Additionally, the bat's barrel end has been cupped after Pujols received the bat. We say this because the lathe mark is still very visible in the knob." This modification, according to the letter, is the reason the authenticator contacted Rawlings. It was discovered during that conversation that the Rawlings rep delivered bats to Albert in Pittsburgh. I read that and ask myself, "If I'm from Rawlings and I'm trying to get Albert's business -- knowing that he uses I13L cupped bats -- why would I give him a bat that doesn't meet his specs?" I also ask myself, "If I'm Albert Pujols and I can get a shipment of any bat I want any time I want, why would I go to all of the trouble of having this bat put on a lathe and cupped?"

I hope these are the types of questions all collectors ask themselves, regardless of whether they have access to this site or to other helpful sources of hobby information.

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com