Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

[Nathan]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

gamehawk,

Since you state that you've been collecting for a number of years, then you're quite aware of the telltale signs that are left behind when a nameplate (or numbers) is added, removed, altered, reapplied, rescreen/resewn, etc. It's actually a lot easier to mess around doing number and name changes on older jerseys (pre-1975) than newer ones. Even then there is plenty of evidence to go around.

But as Scott and Joel pointed out, I hardly think it's fair to start something with a sensational title that would suggest that collegejersey.com sells bad items when there has yet to be that first shred of proof or even a reasonable doubt.

But as long as we're discussing semantics further, let me explain a jersey I acquired from the NHL-MGG program. I'll go through the situation and you tell me what it's classified as.

A jersey was made up in the preseason for a goaltender (let's call him "Goalie #1"). He played in the preseason and was sent down to the AHL before the regular season started. As it happened, the starting goaltender for the NHL team got injured and Goalie #1 was recalled. The jersey had been kept on hand in case of an emergency callup and was reissued for the duration of the callup. Goalie #1 dressed for 9 games and appeared on the active roster, but he never saw the ice during the course of the game. He did participate in pregame warmups though, and there is visible wear that allowed me to achieve a photomatch to numerous cards. Now....what is this jersey officially classified as?

Scott,

If it strikes your fancy, feel free to ship the jersey to me and I (an unbiased collector with equipment room experience) will take a look at it and let everyone know what my opinion on the matter is.

[Mike Grueber]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

Scott,

If a jersey could be in pristine condition and still be considered game-worn according to your definition, what authenticiation process do you use to determine if jerseys in pristine condition are game-worn or game-issued?


Mike Grueber

[collegejersey.com]

Game Worn Jerseys from CollegeJersey.com

Mike,

Thanks for your post.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, our definition of “Game-Worn” is:

“A jersey worn during an official game by a player on the roster in attendance at the game.”

As I mentioned earlier, this does not say that they have to be in game action. Therefore, it follows that a game worn jersey can be in “pristine condition”.

As I further acknowledged, reasonable people may differ on their agreement with this definition. However, it is my belief that as long as we clearly state our terms, which we have posted on our glossary page, we have done our part in this regard and leave it up to the consumer to decide.

As far as the process we use to authenticate a jersey or other item, it depends on how we acquired the item in the first place. For the purposes of simplicity, there are two basic ways we acquire jerseys. First, in bulk directly from the schools. Second, in small numbers from collectors or other third parties.

I will begin with the small lots. If we acquire a jersey from a third party collector, we go through several steps in order to authenticate it. First, we speak with the seller via email or on the phone and gather as much detailed information about how they acquired the item and what they know about is history. Next, we overlay that information against our database of over 20,000 college game worn items. We check things like the style, patching, fabric, condition, manufacturer, etc. that was used by a school for a given time period. Third, once we get the item in house, we do a visual inspection and cross check it against our current physical inventory. Fourth, we photo match the jersey against one of our pictures of sold items or use one of several outside professional sports photography sources. If we are unable to confirm the authenticity of the item via any of these criteria, then we do not accept it and return it to the seller. If we can match the jersey, then obviously we designate it accordingly.


If the jersey was acquired in bulk from a school, we go through the following steps (not necessarily in this order as each school differs). We take the stock in house and do our own inventory. We catalog details about every item including cut, color, condition, size, etc.

Once we have our own independent inventory, we set up a meeting with the school and gather general & detailed information about the purchase lot including the year period(s) the items were used and the process that the schools uses to manage the items when they were being used. We determine information like, do the schools rotate jerseys? How many jerseys does the school use in this rotation through the course of the year? Who does the repairs on a jersey? When are they done? What is the process for laundering? Schools vary greatly in their approaches, so it is key to understand these details. As a side note, it is the equipment managers who typically define these processes, so that is why they are important in the authentication process.

Next, we reference our in house resources including our current inventory, photo inventory of sold items, media guides, roster lists, etc. Then based on all of this information, we designate each piece as game worn or team issued according to the definition that is posted on our glossary page. If the jersey was worn on the field by a player on the roster in attendance at a game, it is deemed game worn.

Let me know if you have any further questions and/or if I can clarify anything further.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott O. Kent
President

www.collegejersey.com
Game Used Jerseys and More...
Get the real deal.
11965 SW 142nd Terrace
Suite 109
Miami, FL 33186

877.251.GAME | Toll-Free
305.774.6601 | Local
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[PK]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

Scott, I think you know the answer to your own question, at least you should if you bought the jersy from Barry at Meigray. I will let Barry chime in with the exact name he puts on a jersey like this, but it lies between game issued and game worn. It sells for more then a game issued and less then a game worn on the ice.

[CollectGU]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

Scott,


Look at all the problems with the Reggie Bush on AMI Auctions as we speak....and The Matt Leinart and Landale White on Historic Auctions.....

."

This has nothing to do with this post at all, but is one of the reasons why this forum sometimes annoys me. The Bush jersey (i will be bidding on it) in the AMI auction has been photo matched , not style matched, and is easily one of the nicest unwashed condition jerseys I've seen. And yet, the perception is there is a problem with it because peeople on the forum questioned the jersey BEFORE they put the photo match up, and also questioned the signature which PSA authenticated...If you are going to go through all that trouble to fake a jersey, why add a signature that if deemed fake ruins the whole jersey.....

[gamehawk]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

Nathan - "Reasonable Doubt" I did not just pull this out of thin air pal....One more time for you... Brenda's responses when describing the use were contradicting when stating that it is in such perfect condition, yet they are so sure it is game worn. She could, and Scott has yet to give ONE SINGLE ACTUAL CHARACTERISTIC That the Brett Elliott Utes jersey is in fact worn! Every response on this forum from Scott is about Jerseys in General [comment removed] and not the specific Elliott. Sending the jersey to you is probably a bad idea, because seeing your posts here already, we can see who your opinion lies with, which obviously would cloud judgement.

CollectGU- You only took out a snipet of my post re: The Bush Jersey. The problem with that, is two words: Lou Lampson. Do a search on him in other forums and through search engines and see what people write about him. if it has a Lampson 100% Authentic LOA stay far, far away from it. I caught AMI last year trying to peddle a fake Iverson without the Black Wilt Chamberlain ArmBand. They chalked it up to "Lou Lampson having a bad night." Well that is funny, when someone spends even $1K on a "Game Worn" Jersey from Lampson/100% Authentic, it would be just lovely to get the jersey and find out that Lampson did his LOA on a game issued jersey, claiming it was game worn. Every jersey that an NBA player wore on the court that year had a Black Arm Patch. You would think that Lampson and his panel of 3 would have noticed that....Also, PSA only cares about the auto. I have read about times when they have authenticated a real auto on a fake gamer. Enjoy the Bush!

[Northstarsfan1]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

i also have a few game worn ncaa jerseys that i wanted to send in for inspection, yet i will be thinking twice. i once owned a jason kidd nets jersey that was in crisp condition. the seller i puchased it from on ebay, got it from grey flannel and it had there loa. when i received the jersey, i pointed out to the seller that it could be team issued and not worn in a game. he took the jersey back, sent it to grey flannel and after looking closer they deemed it team issued and gave him a refund on the different between a game worn and team issued jersey. just my two cents, but i think college jerseys should actually look twice at the jersey to see if they missed something. grey flannel did and they fixed it.

Allen Conway
acconway@msn.com

[Mike Grueber]

Re: Authentcity Problem with CollegeJersey.com

Scott,

Thanks for your reply to my question. I feel comfortable with your authentication process. I was primarily interested in the authentication process involved in cases where you acquire a large number of jerseys from a given school and some of those jerseys are in pristine condition.

I would expect game-issued jerseys to be consistent with game-worn jerseys with repsect to tagging, numbering, lettering, customizations, etc., so I am glad to hear that you ask the school how many jerseys were produced for each player and the rotation pattern that they use. I believe that such information would allow you to make an informed decision as to whether a jersey in pristine condition was actually game-worn or game-issued.


Mike Grueber

[CollectGU]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

CollectGU- You only took out a snipet of my post re: The Bush Jersey. The problem with that, is two words: Lou Lampson. Do a search on him in other forums and through search engines and see what people write about him. if it has a Lampson 100% Authentic LOA stay far, far away from it. I caught AMI last year trying to peddle a fake Iverson without the Black Wilt Chamberlain ArmBand. They chalked it up to "Lou Lampson having a bad night." Well that is funny, when someone spends even $1K on a "Game Worn" Jersey from Lampson/100% Authentic, it would be just lovely to get the jersey and find out that Lampson did his LOA on a game issued jersey, claiming it was game worn. Every jersey that an NBA player wore on the court that year had a Black Arm Patch. You would think that Lampson and his panel of 3 would have noticed that....Also, PSA only cares about the auto. I have read about times when they have authenticated a real auto on a fake gamer. Enjoy the Bush!

Because you don't like Lou Lampson's work, you are going to disregard that it is photomatched? That's pretty short sighted. The photo match (and any others that may be out there by doing you own homework..) is the strong evidence, who issued the LOA is secondary.....

[gamehawk]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

Collect GU -I am simply saying that anything that has Lampson's LOA is something I stay away from because of first hand experience that I described beforehand. No matter what the circumstances are, Lampson does not cut it for me, and anything that has his LOA or signature I, and many people won't touch with a 50 foot pole.

[CollectGU]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

Collect GU -I am simply saying that anything that has Lampson's LOA is something I stay away from because of first hand experience that I described beforehand. No matter what the circumstances are, Lampson does not cut it for me, and anything that has his LOA or signature I, and many people won't touch with a 50 foot pole.

It sounds like you rely too much on who the authentcator is and not the evidence presented....To each his own...This is way off the original topic of this thread anyway, and we'll agree to disagree on this.....

[gamehawk]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

I just noticed a post below telling of an experience with this topic. Second looks are essential, and if a company as big as Grey Flannel can go back and admit they made a mistake, then even a company the size of collegegamejersey can do the same. Keep in mind that there own employee could not find one tiny, spec of evidence to say that it was game worn. Like I described with Milt Byron, he is an expert, and if he can't see even one spot of evidence of wear, he will write it up as team issued. This jersey would be noted as just that to all notable authenticators.

Mike G. - I respect your opinion. However, it is a major decision when a jersey is borderline game worn/game issued. Part of what is wrong with the hobby today is these dealers/people come along and write up LOA's on jerseys that are not what they are claimed to be. I simply feel that this company does not have the expertise/credentials to FULLY determine that this Brett Elliott Gamer is game worn.

[gamehawk]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

CollectGU- Doing you homework is essential. We agree on that. I do my homework dilligently, however putting alot of trust into an authenticator like Meigray is not a bad thing at all. A collector can surf there site and not worry about an item being fake. People who dislike Meigray hate statements like that, but it is in fact true. If I am surfing Meigray and see a pair of NY Rangers skates from a certain player, I will jump and get them, merely because of there authentication process and Item Registration system. That is what puts them above the rest. If I saw the same skates with a Lampson LOA, a Cal Sports LOA, a Grey Flannel LOA....the list can keep going...I will not go with it. Alot of these companies keep having the same problems with authenticity.

Also, I wanted to buy a pair of Cadillac Williams Game Worn Gloves from Elite Sports last week. But after the Hines Ward Cleat incident, I will stay far away from them. Yes, the gloves look real, but with the Hines Cleats, people put alot of trust in the actual item and look at the outcome, but when all the smoked cleared, it was the dealer/authenticator (Elite Sports) who was left with all eyes on him.

[ChrisCavalier]

A Note About This Thread

Hello Everyone,

Eric and I spoke about this thread and he asked that I make a post here since he is currently swamped at work.

While we thought the thread was useful to members, there were a number of times where posts contained what appeared to be personal attacks that were in violation of rule #3 on the forum. Thus, the thread has been edited to remove such comments. In addition, the title of the thread has been changed to reflect the intended purpose of the thread rather than an accusation.

If anyone has a specific question they would like to ask of Scott please feel free to do so as I believe he has been very candid and willing to discuss any questions our members may have about his company's protocol. However, please note that all discourse on this thread, or any other thread for that matter, should be consistent with the rules of the forum and will be moderated as such.

Please feel free to let us know if you have any questions and thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[Mike Grueber]

Re: Authentcity Question For CollegeJersey.com

Gamehawk,

At the end of the day, it is important that you feel comfortable with the jersey. If you don't feel comfortable with the jersey because you believe that that it may be game-issued rather than game-worn, then it is probably best that you don't buy the jersey.

I respect your opinion, too, and certainly understand your perspective. As someone who primarily collects game-worn hockey jerseys, I have a strong preference for jerseys that show a signficant amount of wear. I do have a few jerseys in my collection that have minimal wear, but I know that they were only worn in a few games.

I tend to agree that letters of authenticity are not worth the paper that they are written on. While provenance is important, I believe that a jersey should speak for itself. Unfortunately, it is not possible to make a definitive determination if a particular jersey was game-worn in some cases. From my perspective, the most important things are a seller's integrity and whether he/she is willing to stand behind the items that they sell.

Meigray's system has been a major step forward in ensuring the authenticity of the jerseys that it sells. While there are checks and balances built into the Meigray system, even that system could conceivably be used to defraud collectors. People feel comfortable with the Meigray system because of the fact that Berry Meisel is an upstanding and honest individual who obviously cares about the hobby. If Barry had an evil twin, that twin could certainly manipulate the situation to exploit collectors.


Mike Grueber