Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

[tmpjets]

Would love to hear your thoughts on wether or not Edgar is ready for the Hall, since this will be his first year and the first true test for DH's. My vote for this honest and faithfull Seattle Mariner is a BIG YES and a first Ballot!

[bronx_burner]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

I'd be surprised if any of the top 4 new eligibles (Martinez, Larkin, Alomar, McGriff) made it in their first year. I have a hard time guessing what the voters will do each year. I personally thought Tim Raines would have gotten much more than the 20-something percentages he has gotten in his first few years of eligibility. I put him in the same class of ballplayer with Larkin and Alomar. McGriff is tough as 7 more home runs and 10 more hits might have been enough to lock him in. I have no idea what to make of Martinez because of the whole DH thing. He was a top player for a number of years but none of his accumulating stats pop out. I don't think any of them make it this year but it will be interesting to see how much support each gets.

I think Dawson makes it this year and Blyleven comes up just short.

[CampWest]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

I really do not understand the concept of the HOF voting. Quite frankly, I think its largely a joke and a sham.

I do not understand how players can go from 10-20% of the vote their first year to 70% in their 12-15th years of eligibility. Did they get more hits, RBI, Wins, Saves, MVPs, etc in those years? Did they age gracefully like a fine wine?

Too often have I heard, "____ is HOF worthy, but not first ballot worthy". If they are HOF material, then give them the vote. If they are not, then do not give them the vote. -- Regardless of what year of eligibility they are in. What difference does it make?

They generally try to elect at least two people each and every year. Why? Money and publicity. They would rather vote in somebody undeserving than forego that year's induction ceremony economic boon to the Hall and the city.

Like most things, its all about money and power. I think Edgar should be in the Hall. I think he will be in the Hall. Unfortunately, with the way the "system" works, I think the voters will withhold votes this year so they can demonstrate their power and slap him with the "Sure he's a HOFer, but not a first ballot HOFer." Instead they will vote in somebody undeserving who has suffered long enough with 30-50% votes to be considered worthy because they "paid their dues and kissed the voters' arses long enough". So, Andre Dawson and Blyleven will probably get in, just because they've aged like fine wine in the voting process and have puckered up.

Just think if people had not voted for a presidential candidate the first year they ran for president, just because they thought "he/she shouldnt get in on their first try".

[gorilla777]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

I think electing Edgar would involve a long argument/discussion as to whether he is really worthy.
And there is a school of thought that says if a guy requires that much thought or discussion, then he really isn't a Hall of Famer. It should be one of those immediate "yes" answers when his name is mentioned.

Ben

[CampWest]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Personally, I think he is an immediate "Yes". The only thing to discuss is educating those that didn't follow his career, which, sadly, is probably half the HOF voters.

.312 career average, 2 batting titles, 7-time all-star, 500+ Doubles, 300+ HR, .418 career OBP... Had a string of 6 consecutive seasons with a .322+ average, followed by a .306 the 7th year.

What more can you expect from a guy?

This means he was clearly one of the best and most consistent hitters of his time. And generally that is an immediate yes to the question, whether or not he played a position or played it well. The voters usually also award extra credit for spending an entire career with one team.

Bad defenders who played a position regularly do not seem to be penalized if they were offensive stars. And 10 time Gold Glove winners who were above average hitters at their position do not get sniffed by the Hall, so I find it a great hypocripsy to deny a guy simply because he DH'ed.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

He won't get in. He was at times the fourth best player on his own team. (AROD, Griffey and Randy Johnson were his teammates for many years). He had some impressive seasons but did not come close to any of the milestone numbers that normally make one a lock for the Hall (500 homers, 3,000 hits). He never won an MVP and his team never played in the World Series. Even if he had played a defensive position he would be a borderline candidate with his total career numbers the fact that he did not play half the game on top of the above pretty much dooms him. Don't get me wrong he was a very, very good player and better than quite a few hall of famers (which is not all that hard considering some of the guys the old veterans committee voted in Harry Hopper, Rick Ferrell, etc.). Molitor DHed alot and he is already in and Frank Thomas will be the next DH type to get in.

[MarinersFan34]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Interesting points thus far, you know my answer but I am also biased because he played for my favorite team.

I've got to wonder then, what would it take for a DH to be voted in? Are you saying that from day #1 a player must play at DH for his entire career and get the "HOF lock numbers" 3000 hits, 500 hrs, etc.. ? If that is the case, we'll probably never see a player who's career is primarily DH get in. It's more of a position players fall back on, not dream of playing every day.

Is it the purists who dislike the DH position? Like it or not, it's a required position in the AL, that's the way it is and it's not gonna change.


As for the first ballot or second ballot issue, yea it's a marketing ploy.. hmm, whos eligible this year, oh some sure HOF'ers, they're in.. who's up for consideration next year.. crap, just some borderlines, guess we'll give them the "complimentary" vote into the hall since nobody else is a big name player. It's a flawed voting system for sure.

[tmpjets]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Yes, I know the odds are stacked against him, and yes I am a Lifer Mariners fan so my vote is yes, but one thing is for sure. How can a guy like Edgar not make it in by the voters with so much going for him? I know he wasn't a BIG name like Griffey, A-rod, and etc. But with the whole DH award renamed after him and batting stats up there with Babe, Lou, Ted and others. Why wait, I can remember a time when I havent gone to a game or watched it on tv when I always come back to Edgar saving this team. To many non seattle fans the historic '95 season where Edgar single handedly save the franchise with "THE DOUBLE". Many teams have there milestones and memoriable moments, but I think the voters need to remember that Edgar helped keep baseball in Seattle with his soft spoken like style of playing ball. For someone who hasent been named for "using" or cheating,betting, or a out right jerk, Edgar really needs to be taken for serious. Why have to pay your dues twice, earn it on the field and in the box and not on the waiting list to get in!

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Batting stats up there with Babe, Lou and Ted? Let's not get carried away, Edgar hit 30 homers once in 18 years! He finished in the top ten in MVP voting twice, never had 200 hits in a season, did not even have 2,500 career hits and the most comparable player to him on BaseballReference.com is Will Clark, who will never sniff the Hall. In fact of the 10 players most comparable to him only Cepeda is in the Hall and it took him an eternity to get there. Don't get me wrong he had some very impressive seasons but it takes at least 10 exceptional seasons (or some dazzling stat accumulations ala Don Sutton) to make the Hall and Edgar only had six or seven such seasons. Molitor was a DH for most of his games and he is already in the Hall and he had 3,000 plus hits and was a World Series MVP. Thomas will be next with his two (should have been three) MVPs, his clean (until proven otherwise) 500 plus homers and 1700 plus RBIs, after him I really do not see anyone on the horizon.

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

An 8-time gold glove outfielder with one of the strongest arms in baseball history to go along with the glove, an 8 time all-star, a member of the 300/300 club (only one not in from this elusive club), former rookie of the year and MVP,...One of the most dominant players of his era is not in yet....Andre Dawson. The players he played with and more importantly the ones he played against all say he is no doubt a hall of famer if there ever was one...Before Edgar, who only played one side of the game gets voted in lets put the hawk....

The case for Edgar is far from an immediate "yes" in my opinion. While I think the voting is far from perfect and guys like Andre aren't in, keeping Edgar out would not be a mistake.

I'm not against a DH getting in....Frank Thomas should and will be voted in......

However if a player is only going to hit he better have numbers that are unbelievable 500 hrs, 3000 hit club type numbers...not just a consistent hitter. He only cracked 29 home runs 1 time, never had 200 hits in a year...He was a very good consistent hitter....no gold gloves, no mvps.

Not having to go through the daily grind of playing each inning every day allowed for the longevity and consistency probably...

Edgar was a very good player...he was consistent as they came..312 lifetime average and he played with one team for his whole career....he has good consistent numbers, a nice lifetime batting average....but Hall of Fame, really? I don't see much of an argument to put him in...much more of an argument to keep him out.

[tmpjets]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Here, please take a look and hope this can change those of you who dont think he can. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2010344959.pdf

This was mailed out to all voters by Seattle for their review.

[flaco1801]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

he was a great ball player... i wish i saw more of him (being a national league fan).. hard working... no steroids (i hope).. he deserves serious consideration.. dont think he makes in right away, but hopefully he will. its a great honor to be elected, but i think they earned a good living, and fan recognition is just as important.. i wont lose sleep.

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

This is a nice write up, I just don't see the immediate yes with him...For instance Look at alomar's numbers...10 Gold Gloves, 500+Doubles, 80 Triples, 200+ hrs, .300 lifetime batting average coming from a 2nd Baseman! These are similar to Edgars and Alomar played second base for petesake and at a gold glove level. Edgar compares well to Will clark or a John Olerud type...good players, but Hall of Fame?? I'm really not understanding how anyone could say an immediate yes to him.

Alomar and Dawson are players that will fight to get in and Ive gone over there numbers... shown how not only did they have very good numbers but also played defense at gold glove levels year in and year out.

He could "sneak" in someday but to even mention first ballot is a far stretch from reality.

[MarinersFan34]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Not that it matters much now, but should MLB change the DH award to the Paul Molitor Award? I mean, he was a DH for a good portion of his career and is in the HOF. If Edgar isn't hall worthy now or in the future, why name an award after someone so mediocre?

[BoneRubbedBat]

Re: Edgar Martinez Designated for the HALL???

Here is the list of upcoming candidates:

2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Dave Burba, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile

2011: Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro, John Olerud, Kevin Brown, Larry Walker, Juan Gonzalez, Tino Martinez, B.J. Surhoff, Marquis Grissom, John Franco, Bret Boone, Al Leiter, Benito Santiago, Carlos Baerga, Raul Mondesi, Bobby Higginson, Wilson Alvarez, Rey Sanchez, Charles Johnson, Jose Offerman, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Dan Wilson, Paul Quantrill, Cal Eldred, Kirk Rueter, Steve Reed

2012: Edgardo Alfonzo, Pedro Astacio, David Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Scott Erickson, Carl Everett, Jeff Fassero, Alex S. Gonzalez, Danny Graves, Rick Helling, Dustin Hermanson, Jose Hernandez, Brian Jordan, Matt Lawton, Javy Lopez, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Jeff Nelson, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Joe Randa, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Jose Vizcaino, Bernie Williams, Eric Young

2013: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Kenny Lofton, David Wells, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Steve Finley, Roberto Hernandez, Jeff Cirillo, Jose Valentin, Reggie Sanders, Jeff Conine, Jose Mesa, Royce Clayton, Bob Wickman, Ryan Klesko, Aaron Sele, Woody Williams, Rondell White, Mike Lieberthal, Tony Batista, Mike Stanton, Sandy Alomar Jr., Damian Miller, Todd Walker

2014: Moises Alou, Armando Benitez, Sean Casey, Jose Cruz Jr., Ray Durham, Damion Easley, Jim Edmonds, Keith Foulke, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez, Mark Grudzielanek, Scott Hatteberg, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Matt Morris, Mike Mussina, Trot Nixon, Hideo Nomo, Jay Payton, Kenny Rogers, Richie Sexson, J.T. Snow, Shannon Stewart, Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Steve Trachsel, Jose Vidro


Looking at these lists of candidates, there are very few that pop out as an immediate "yes." Some are tainted by confirmed/suspected steroid use, some just borderline candidates, and most just aren't remotely worthy. I don't see a single candidate on the 2010 thru 2012 lists that is Hall-worthy. Nobody in those three years worth of voting reached any magic milestones other than Palmeiro, and he was someone that actually tested positive for 'roids, not just suspected of using. 2013 should be a very interesting voting year.