JSA autograph authentication question

[Dalkiel]

i concur that it was a sad, embarrassing but isolated incident. some newbie employee was caught off-guard faced with approving a semi-star's signature that was signing on-sight. based on the exemplar library that jsa possesses and advanced, signature verifying methods, i see them in the forefront of autograph authenticating. i imagine the person was reprimanded if not fired for his poor performance on that day and that stricter procedure were implemented to prevent a similar situation in the future. if this had happen with a high end $1K item on that video, JSA would seize to exist.

That guy was no novice authenticator. It was 'Larry' one of their head guys, if not their head guy (aside from Spence).

He's probably the least friendly human being on the face of the planet. They'd have been doing the world a favor by firing him.

[buzzy12]

I'm a first timer on this site but a 30 year collector and have NOT collected an autograph in the last 10 years. But as a dealer in the business I have had many signatures cross my way and the battle of the authenticator has been rediculous. Trust?? For what I say, You pay wayyyy to much money for what I now learn is just an opinion. In this book I'm about to write here on this forum , I'm not going to state any names but I will say it's the big ones out there that I am talking about, so I'm sure you can figure this out. Let's start with a painting I did of Mickey Mantle that I had signed in person in 1988 in Brooklyn, ask if it came back to me real.....yep you got it !! No it didn't, and I stood there and have a picture of me and Mick to prove it is real, recently , say about a year ago I had a Beatles collection come my way. 11 seperate pieces with the big one being a Beatles album signed by all four, the gentleman I received it all from not only had the Sotherby's catalogs with the photos of each item in there but also had his original receipts from the late 80's and 90's. When I went to one of the top dogs, a panel of so called authenticators decided that all but 2 were NOT REAL ! And that album worth $15,000, now not worth 15 cents. How did I feel when I had to go back to the owner and tell him that his 20 something year old collection was worthless. The answer I got from the owner , the big company that bears his name was that the technology today is much more than what they had years ago. Ok, possibly true....but Sotherby's??? So is all that Art and political stuff they have sold that we all possibly have in our collections Real....or Fake?? After years of passing it by in our hallways thinking it's a real signature, art or whatever just to have some "opinion" state that your collection is worthless, it's rediculous.
Just two months ago (and I am going to say the company's name) I sent a Honus Wagner autograph post card to PSA, it came back "questionable Authenticity" WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ??? So I call and I ask the rude woman who answered, "What the Hell is this??" If I wanted to find out that you didn't know I would have asked the baggage guy at the Shop Rite....basically you robbed $150 from me to tell me that you don't know, and with that the woman replies ..."well that is our opinion" WHAT OPINION.....YOU DON'T KNOW ...and you still have my $150 !!! Crazy, so In turn I listed it on ebay and in my listing I stated what PSA said, so I received a high bid of a little over $300 measily bucks , and not to mention a dealer with nothing but PSA authenticated signatures and well over 40,000+ feedbacks....this is who bought the so called questionable signature...I bet he got it authenticated with a "Yes it's real' and probably got $1500 for it. AMAZING !!!
I could go on, but the last straw happened tonight. 6 months ago I sold the last piece of autographs from my collection...a 1952 Yankees baseball. Because of the garbage that I dealt with I decided to send a very clear and detailed photograph over to one of the major authenticators over to Heritage Auctions, a place I have dealt with before. Actually, I wanted to purchase the ball and get an opinion and did...The Mantle is real ! Not a clubhouse !! Great , I'll buy it I said to myself. Well a month later I decided I was not going to keep it because I was getting laid off etc. So I sell the ball with the e-mail conformation stating that the Mantle signature IS REAL (exact words) So I sell it...now 6 months later the buyer comes back to me and says that the Mantle IS a clubhouse signature and the authenticator is the other big guy from Heritage. Hmmmmm...what the heck is going on here !!! I'm completely out of the business, I'm sickened after 30 years of this stupid hobby, and this is what I have to deal with ! Anyway, remember, I sold the ball with one guys letter and he received an e-mail from one of the other guys, both from the same place , two different answers, and now I have the buyer threatning me , well am I wrong??? I don't think so what so ever, but that is regardless anyway.
My issue is that I work very very very HARD for my money, what ever little I have left and what I have seen over the years and now recently makes me want to puke. These guys have cornered the market with this crap just to make the novice collector comfortable. I have said time and time again, if you want a real Babe Ruth signature than you should have been alive when he was. Look, ya want to collect, do your own homework. Paying these guys for a service just to tell you that they don't know, or it's questionable, or one guy says it's real one says it's not, c'mon people !!! Look, I really don't care anymore as I am in no way spending my money on this stuff anymore, but I'm gonna tell ya, especially the newbies out there....collect a glove, or a STORE MODEL bat, you know it is what it is....and don't even get me started with "Game bats' that's another racket for another forum.
Yes I am very disgruntle but what I had to deal with tonight (and I'm sure it's not over) has pissed me off beyond belief. And anyone who knows me, knows that I don't get mad. This is the last straw.

[diamondicons]

Can you post a photo of the 52 Yankees Ball for us all to see. Thanks!

[justinbittner220]

Post some pics of everything. All the guys here will give their HONEST OPINIONS on each item on why or why not the items are questionable.

[buzzy12]

How do I post photos on this site? I've been fighting with Heritage all day today, I could write a book on what happened today.

[buzzy12]

Ok here we go , I believe that the picture links will work. Now as I stated , oh and by the way I screwed up saying it was a '52 Yanks ball, I meant 1953.

Here is a copy and paste of the e-mail letter I received from a VERY big authenticator from Heritage....And below that is the e-mail that the buyer of the '53 ball received from another very big Heritage authenticator.
But I love the way they get around the contradiction of their so called findings, and you will see that email also. I have erased the names as I'm not quite ready to spill who wrote these letters...


This is the first initial letter I read....sounds like he's authenticating the ball to me , or am I oblivious?? And gives a value....and wants me to consign it !

Hello Vinnie,

Thank you for the inquiry. The Mantle signature is good. The ones on the Brooklyn ball, in my opinion, are not authentic and appear secretarial. The Yankees ball might have a $1500-$2500 value. If you are interested in consigning the ball to one of our Signature Sports Auctions, let me know and I will send you some paperwork. Read below for some pertinent information on myself and Heritage Auctions.

Best Regards,




This letter is what I received back in March, after the buyer bought it directly from me , he in turn decided to consign it and this is the letter he received from the SAME COMPANY ... 6 months later....What changed??


(Buyer),
The Mantle signature on the 1953 TSBB is CH. The value is closer to $500. Would you like us to place it in an Internet auction or have it returned?




Now the buyer is furious and has every right, I am furious and have every right also. How can this be. And the answer I got ...


Mr. Buyer/Seller
Thank you for your email. Our consignment directors receive hundreds of inquiries on a weekly basis and provide collectors with opinions on their material while providing market estimates. The evaluations are a complimentary service. Heritage Auctions is not an autograph authentication service. It is our model to request third-party authentication for all autographs in all our sports auctions, regardless of our in-house opinion of the item. If you are purchasing and selling autographed material then I suggest that you do so with letters of authentication that come from trusted hobby authentication firms such as PSA/DNA or JSA. This is an issue that needs to be corrected between yourself and the seller of the item, not with Heritage since once again, we are not an authentication service.
Best,

Now this is my answer:

This is where they are wrong. Yes Heritage is not an authentication company but *** and *** are authenticators... Legends they say. Why do they need a third party, if we can't trust a legend than who can we trust. Its complete bull ** as far as I'm concerned and they should be held liable. I have had many *** letters of authenticity through the years. What are they saying now, he needs a third party?? He is the third party !

Anyway, as I am saying, and really to the novice collector because us seasoned ones have been through the ringer at one time or another and I am sure they know who I am talking about above, Is it good to have authenticators?? the answer is YES, is it good to have 500 of them....NO , because now it becomes a who do you trust game...the bottom line is, they are all wrong, not about the authenticating part, but the part about taking .... stealing our hard earned money for a lousy opinion , and if I spend that kind of money it better be REAL TO EVERY authenticator !

My point with heritage is that in every e-mail they rudely stated that Heritage is not an authenticator, HMMM, idiots.....Heritage is a business , the people are the authenticators, and that's who I talked to REAL LIVE PEOPLE .... who call themselves legends.

[buzzy12]

For those who haven't seen this site , it is a must


http://www.behindthegavel.com/index.html

[Neal]

but I'm gonna tell ya, especially the newbies out there....collect a glove, or a STORE MODEL bat, you know it is what it is....and don't even get me started with "Game bats' that's another racket for another forum.

could you please explain?
Thanks

As far as Spence and PSA/DNA - I trust them. I know there are mistakes out there, but mistakes do happen.

[buzzy12]

I realize mistakes happen, no one is perfect at all, but this is my issue, take for example the Yankee Ball, These guys don't talk to each other and their from the same company, how is it that one top authenticator says it's real and one top says it's not, who do you trust ??? The real answer is "you really don't know, they don't and we don't....so who makes one guy right over the other. And then to say that Heritage Auctions is NOT an authentication service, well we all know this but the top guys there ARE ! They basically told me that IF we had paid for the service we would have received the correct answer.
Now as far as the Wagner, I paid $150 bucks for them to come back to me just to tell me that it is questionable, well it wasn't when the top PSA dealer sent it in, he got it authenticated....why do you think??? Because the guy spends thousands with them, of course they are going to lean the question on his side, and NO ONE can tell me they don't do that!

The bottom line is that NO I trust none of them, not really for what they think they know, but the ethics of the authentication business is stupid.
No standards, they have the power to take a $ 50,000 collection and turn it into 50 cents, and honestly who the hell are they.

Which brings me to another messed up situation about the Beatles collection. If you read my story you will see the details, Now I know that times are different but when you have a collection like I had in my hands, bought from Sotherby's auction , and have in your possession the catalogs and original receipts of the sales, and 90% of the items come back fake, The authenticator just turned a very expensive 20 year old investment into a pile of dirt. And the collector has NO recourse. He spent tens of thousands of dollars back then just to hear from the 'Beatles" expert that it is worthless.....how would any of you like that??? Ya see, I have stories, wayyyyy too many so my trust is gone. When you take an autograph that you actually saw signed in person, like my painting from 1988 of Mickey Mantle, and JSA wouldn't pass it , you start to worry about where this hobby is going if you care about collecting.

Hey maybe I'm just one of those guys who came across the darker side of this business un-intentionally, but my stories are as real as the sun. Trust who you want, I'm not at all telling people out there NOT to use these people, but learn to educate yourself, talk to the masses and save your hard earned money !

The bottom line is that you pay for an opinion, it doesn't mean it's right, YOU as the collector have to still think, ya see it doesn't matter if it's really real, does it, just as long as you get that golden ticket. Than you actually have something worth something. That's the whole meaning about this rant. And truthfully only collectors who have been in the business as long as me, saw the beginning and the end of the 1980's boom can truly understand what I am talking about. If you know anything about money and marketing, and this may not be the best example, but McDonalds, is it really as good as they say it is ??? Read the story from the link I posted, An barber cutting $8 dollar haircuts needs a license, but these guys, any one can call themselves an authenticator , advertise themselves, promote their big name but yet can never be held responsible for being wrong ! Now that is unreal. But yet we have collectors come and go into this hobby tunnel visioned because of their big colorful ads stating that their the best. The fact is, if you're a smart collector you could know what they know, and it would cost you nothing.

I'm actually NOT a disgruntle person, but this had sickened me beyond belief, a certificate just means it's sellable, real or not and that is what you novice or shallow collectors need to realize.

[3arod13]

I will never use his service again.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...=4765#post4765