JSA autograph authentication question

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Ok here we go , I believe that the picture links will work. Now as I stated , oh and by the way I screwed up saying it was a '52 Yanks ball, I meant 1953.

Here is a copy and paste of the e-mail letter I received from a VERY big authenticator from Heritage....And below that is the e-mail that the buyer of the '53 ball received from another very big Heritage authenticator.
But I love the way they get around the contradiction of their so called findings, and you will see that email also. I have erased the names as I'm not quite ready to spill who wrote these letters...


This is the first initial letter I read....sounds like he's authenticating the ball to me , or am I oblivious?? And gives a value....and wants me to consign it !

Hello Vinnie,

Thank you for the inquiry. The Mantle signature is good. The ones on the Brooklyn ball, in my opinion, are not authentic and appear secretarial. The Yankees ball might have a $1500-$2500 value. If you are interested in consigning the ball to one of our Signature Sports Auctions, let me know and I will send you some paperwork. Read below for some pertinent information on myself and Heritage Auctions.

Best Regards,




This letter is what I received back in March, after the buyer bought it directly from me , he in turn decided to consign it and this is the letter he received from the SAME COMPANY ... 6 months later....What changed??


(Buyer),
The Mantle signature on the 1953 TSBB is CH. The value is closer to $500. Would you like us to place it in an Internet auction or have it returned?




Now the buyer is furious and has every right, I am furious and have every right also. How can this be. And the answer I got ...


Mr. Buyer/Seller
Thank you for your email. Our consignment directors receive hundreds of inquiries on a weekly basis and provide collectors with opinions on their material while providing market estimates. The evaluations are a complimentary service. Heritage Auctions is not an autograph authentication service. It is our model to request third-party authentication for all autographs in all our sports auctions, regardless of our in-house opinion of the item. If you are purchasing and selling autographed material then I suggest that you do so with letters of authentication that come from trusted hobby authentication firms such as PSA/DNA or JSA. This is an issue that needs to be corrected between yourself and the seller of the item, not with Heritage since once again, we are not an authentication service.
Best,

Now this is my answer:

This is where they are wrong. Yes Heritage is not an authentication company but *** and *** are authenticators... Legends they say. Why do they need a third party, if we can't trust a legend than who can we trust. Its complete bull ** as far as I'm concerned and they should be held liable. I have had many *** letters of authenticity through the years. What are they saying now, he needs a third party?? He is the third party !

Anyway, as I am saying, and really to the novice collector because us seasoned ones have been through the ringer at one time or another and I am sure they know who I am talking about above, Is it good to have authenticators?? the answer is YES, is it good to have 500 of them....NO , because now it becomes a who do you trust game...the bottom line is, they are all wrong, not about the authenticating part, but the part about taking .... stealing our hard earned money for a lousy opinion , and if I spend that kind of money it better be REAL TO EVERY authenticator !

My point with heritage is that in every e-mail they rudely stated that Heritage is not an authenticator, HMMM, idiots.....Heritage is a business , the people are the authenticators, and that's who I talked to REAL LIVE PEOPLE .... who call themselves legends.

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

For those who haven't seen this site , it is a must

http://www.behindthegavel.com/index.html

[Neal]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

but I'm gonna tell ya, especially the newbies out there....collect a glove, or a STORE MODEL bat, you know it is what it is....and don't even get me started with "Game bats' that's another racket for another forum.

could you please explain?
Thanks

As far as Spence and PSA/DNA - I trust them. I know there are mistakes out there, but mistakes do happen.

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I realize mistakes happen, no one is perfect at all, but this is my issue, take for example the Yankee Ball, These guys don't talk to each other and their from the same company, how is it that one top authenticator says it's real and one top says it's not, who do you trust ??? The real answer is "you really don't know, they don't and we don't....so who makes one guy right over the other. And then to say that Heritage Auctions is NOT an authentication service, well we all know this but the top guys there ARE ! They basically told me that IF we had paid for the service we would have received the correct answer.
Now as far as the Wagner, I paid $150 bucks for them to come back to me just to tell me that it is questionable, well it wasn't when the top PSA dealer sent it in, he got it authenticated....why do you think??? Because the guy spends thousands with them, of course they are going to lean the question on his side, and NO ONE can tell me they don't do that!

The bottom line is that NO I trust none of them, not really for what they think they know, but the ethics of the authentication business is stupid.
No standards, they have the power to take a $ 50,000 collection and turn it into 50 cents, and honestly who the hell are they.

Which brings me to another messed up situation about the Beatles collection. If you read my story you will see the details, Now I know that times are different but when you have a collection like I had in my hands, bought from Sotherby's auction , and have in your possession the catalogs and original receipts of the sales, and 90% of the items come back fake, The authenticator just turned a very expensive 20 year old investment into a pile of dirt. And the collector has NO recourse. He spent tens of thousands of dollars back then just to hear from the 'Beatles" expert that it is worthless.....how would any of you like that??? Ya see, I have stories, wayyyyy too many so my trust is gone. When you take an autograph that you actually saw signed in person, like my painting from 1988 of Mickey Mantle, and JSA wouldn't pass it , you start to worry about where this hobby is going if you care about collecting.

Hey maybe I'm just one of those guys who came across the darker side of this business un-intentionally, but my stories are as real as the sun. Trust who you want, I'm not at all telling people out there NOT to use these people, but learn to educate yourself, talk to the masses and save your hard earned money !

The bottom line is that you pay for an opinion, it doesn't mean it's right, YOU as the collector have to still think, ya see it doesn't matter if it's really real, does it, just as long as you get that golden ticket. Than you actually have something worth something. That's the whole meaning about this rant. And truthfully only collectors who have been in the business as long as me, saw the beginning and the end of the 1980's boom can truly understand what I am talking about. If you know anything about money and marketing, and this may not be the best example, but McDonalds, is it really as good as they say it is ??? Read the story from the link I posted, An barber cutting $8 dollar haircuts needs a license, but these guys, any one can call themselves an authenticator , advertise themselves, promote their big name but yet can never be held responsible for being wrong ! Now that is unreal. But yet we have collectors come and go into this hobby tunnel visioned because of their big colorful ads stating that their the best. The fact is, if you're a smart collector you could know what they know, and it would cost you nothing.

I'm actually NOT a disgruntle person, but this had sickened me beyond belief, a certificate just means it's sellable, real or not and that is what you novice or shallow collectors need to realize.

[3arod13]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I will never use his service again.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum2/showthread.php?p=4765#post4765

[BULBUS]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Most people here agree with you and realize that a PSA, JSA, ect. LOA is just a piece of paper. The only reason some on this board use their services is for resale. A LOA make some buyers feel good about what they are buying. If you go through previous threads, you will see countless items from auction houses, with "LOA's", that are proven to be not authentic. I don't think that a the novice collector will ever realize that a LOA is just an opinion and the likes of PSA and JSA will be around for a long time.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

My take on JSA. Save your money if your thinking of using them to authenticate because they are often wrong and if they say your real autograph that you got in person is fake your out the $. Don't buy stuff that comes with their COA because it is unreliable and if noone buys it people will stop using them and maybe we can finally get rid of these snake oil salesmen.

[vonbrandingo]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

A PSA/DNA or JSA letter is not just a piece of paper to dealers or collectors looking to part with game used or AU items.

PSA/DNA has a better reputation than JSA and will outlast the JSA/BGS partnership. It looks like people think and bid that way. I have more confidence in PSA/DNA's (Taube's) opinion over any other game used bat authenticator and feel the same way about a PSA/DNA slab or letter signed by one of a lot for an AU. It's not just a case of power in numbers for AU authentication.

Card grading is another subject and BGS is the best. Not only are their cases more protective but they assign subgrades unlike PSA/DNA. They also grade the card and the auto on the card. PSA/DNA only grades one or the other for AU cards.

[Mulligans]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

A bit O.T., but just a piece of advice for all collectors.....If you have a PSA Card in the database or any other Data base....Steiner, JO, Tristar etc.....If you haven't already done so, you should look it up...confirm what it says is correct and print a copy for your records.

This is something we all tend to overlook and a handful of databases are no longer in existence. Without some form of backup and possible counterfeits, you could encounter a potential loss in value of your prized possessions.

[dbushing1]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Have been following this topic with some interest. Having no personal investment in either company and after reading the comments I just have to ask. What alternatives due the naysayers suggest.
1. Collect only autographs you get in person. That is a 100% slam dunk. I have a few autographs of players I've met, all obtained in person. But what if I want to collect players who died before I started? Is seems, by some of the prices I have seen, that many people do collect deceased players, so what safety net do they have to make sure the autographs are correct?

2. Every collection will eventually be sold by someone. The market place recognizes PSA and JSA as the most reliable sources.

3. Would the hobby be better off with no authenticators? It seems that if there is no fear of authenticators , the forgers would have a field day and that the market would be flooded with forgeries and would hurt the value of everyones collection as confidence would erode along with prices. Every single collector I have ever known, regardless of why they collect, wants to feel that their purchases are a sound investment, either for their future or the ones they leave the collection to.

4. What about some of the former authenticators whose track record could not be counted in the single or double digits as to mistakes. Without the better companies in the business, these characters would still be pumping out letters for a dollar each with a rubber stamp.

5. Money back guarantees on mistakes would be nice but what do you do if one company likes it and another does not. Who is to say which is correct. One thing I can say is that when I have run an item by both PSA and JSA, the conclusion has been the same 100% of the time , either good or bad, which shows that there is a consistency.

6. I have known Jimmy Spence and Steve Grad since they both started in this business and have always found both very knowledgeable and helpful. I know they try to get it right every time and while , with autographs, there is plenty of room for subjective opinion, it is based on years of experience and loads of examples that continue to grow.
Because of this, I would not think of buying an autograph at a show unless one or the other of these two companies gave it their blessing. I've seen a lot of autographs but cannot even begin to compare my meager knowledge against theirs. I have also met the fellows behind the autograph alert a few times but have no experience with their company. So said, I cannot lay claim to any knowledge of the rift between the entities. As to the filing of lawsuits, the reason it is often not pursued is that it costs a ton of money and is often very hard to prove damage in dollar amounts and makes for a costly and often losing proposition with regards to where suits must be filed and proving the dollar value.

To conclude, I think it best left to each individual to set the guide lines for their collecting interest. For those of us without the experience to compare to either JSA or PSA, we rely on these companies to help avoid costly errors and I think the hobby at large, regardless of the mistakes, is far better off with such companies than we would be without such services. If you have enough knowledge to make you own decisions, that is great, but some of us are not that comfortable doing so and speaking for myself, I would not want to purchase any pricey item without such services. Just my two cents. David Bushing

[trsent]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Very good post Dave. Too many people preach that people should not trust any 3rd party authenticators, but they do not understand, the average person does not wish to arm chair authenticate themselves. They trust and like to work with companies such as PSA/DNA and JSA.

Then you mention the guys behind Autograph Alert. My favorite site. They are the ones who preach against many 3rd party autograph authenticators, but they own their own 3rd party authentication service PAAS. Their site is to attack those who they don't get along with in the industry, pretending they have issues with 3rd party authentication, but then they authenticate items through their own authentication service which they never mention on the web site!

[otismalibu]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Every single collector I have ever known, regardless of why they collect, wants to feel that their purchases are a sound investment, either for their future or the ones they leave the collection to.

And that's why everyone wants the paperwork/authentication. Buy it with paperwork and you think it might hold its value and/or it will be a more attractive sale item down the road. Get the paperwork added after the fact and you've added value to your piece.

Whether the item is legit or not really has no bearing, unless it's so terrible that no one will authenticate it.

Would someone rather have a Jordan card that was signed in person or a signed Jordan card that's been authenticated/slabbed but might be bad?

It's like graded cards. You might have to de-slab & re-submit a few times until you get the desired grade

[sammy]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I once saw a movie about this subject.

It was called; "The Neverending Story."

[cohibasmoker]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Are any of the autograph authentication "experts" court certified expert witnesses in document and/or handwriting analysis? If there are, that's the person (s) you want to authenticate your item (s).

Just an opinion - hope I didn't offend.

Jim

[dbushing1]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Jim, I am a supreme court certified expert. How does this process happen? Quite simple, you get named as an expert witness on one side of an issue that has been brought to court and the other side gets to quiz you until they are deemed satisfied that you are an expert. Problem here is , and I think most of you whom have been around a while, will well remember the famous FBI forensic autograph specialist that could not even get a Stan Musial right. They taped him in a TV special in which they proved that every call on an autograph he made during that special was dead wrong. His excuse was simply that it was his expert opinion, he backed it up with no out of pocket restitution and stated he was wrong. You might ask how an FBI certified expert could get it wrong more often than right and still be an expert. Great question and one that has yet to ever be explained. Simple truth of the matter is that to be an expert, one must look at thousands and tens of thousands of examples, keep a daily update on bonifide examples such as court documents, and have an understanding of changing styles due to age, health, consistency and other details of which I am not good enough to even explain. A lot of people get their appraisal license yet unless they follow the specific market of which they are asked to appraise, they would simply be guessing regardless of how many diplomas they have. I would take the experience of someone like Dave Meidema, Jimmy Spence or Steve Grad over some unknown with a stack of signed certificates earned sitting in a class room. I consider myself very welled versed in the classics having read most of the top 100 and sat through numerous years of classes yet I do not consider myself a writer no matter how many masterpieces I read. No offense Jim but I think experience far out weighs certificates earned off the field. David Bushing