JSA autograph authentication question

[BULBUS]

Most people here agree with you and realize that a PSA, JSA, ect. LOA is just a piece of paper. The only reason some on this board use their services is for resale. A LOA make some buyers feel good about what they are buying. If you go through previous threads, you will see countless items from auction houses, with "LOA's", that are proven to be not authentic. I don't think that a the novice collector will ever realize that a LOA is just an opinion and the likes of PSA and JSA will be around for a long time.

[legaleagle92481]

My take on JSA. Save your money if your thinking of using them to authenticate because they are often wrong and if they say your real autograph that you got in person is fake your out the $. Don't buy stuff that comes with their COA because it is unreliable and if noone buys it people will stop using them and maybe we can finally get rid of these snake oil salesmen.

[vonbrandingo]

A PSA/DNA or JSA letter is not just a piece of paper to dealers or collectors looking to part with game used or AU items.

PSA/DNA has a better reputation than JSA and will outlast the JSA/BGS partnership. It looks like people think and bid that way. I have more confidence in PSA/DNA's (Taube's) opinion over any other game used bat authenticator and feel the same way about a PSA/DNA slab or letter signed by one of a lot for an AU. It's not just a case of power in numbers for AU authentication.

Card grading is another subject and BGS is the best. Not only are their cases more protective but they assign subgrades unlike PSA/DNA. They also grade the card and the auto on the card. PSA/DNA only grades one or the other for AU cards.

[Mulligans]

A bit O.T., but just a piece of advice for all collectors.....If you have a PSA Card in the database or any other Data base....Steiner, JO, Tristar etc.....If you haven't already done so, you should look it up...confirm what it says is correct and print a copy for your records.

This is something we all tend to overlook and a handful of databases are no longer in existence. Without some form of backup and possible counterfeits, you could encounter a potential loss in value of your prized possessions.

[dbushing1]

Have been following this topic with some interest. Having no personal investment in either company and after reading the comments I just have to ask. What alternatives due the naysayers suggest.
1. Collect only autographs you get in person. That is a 100% slam dunk. I have a few autographs of players I've met, all obtained in person. But what if I want to collect players who died before I started? Is seems, by some of the prices I have seen, that many people do collect deceased players, so what safety net do they have to make sure the autographs are correct?

2. Every collection will eventually be sold by someone. The market place recognizes PSA and JSA as the most reliable sources.

3. Would the hobby be better off with no authenticators? It seems that if there is no fear of authenticators , the forgers would have a field day and that the market would be flooded with forgeries and would hurt the value of everyones collection as confidence would erode along with prices. Every single collector I have ever known, regardless of why they collect, wants to feel that their purchases are a sound investment, either for their future or the ones they leave the collection to.

4. What about some of the former authenticators whose track record could not be counted in the single or double digits as to mistakes. Without the better companies in the business, these characters would still be pumping out letters for a dollar each with a rubber stamp.

5. Money back guarantees on mistakes would be nice but what do you do if one company likes it and another does not. Who is to say which is correct. One thing I can say is that when I have run an item by both PSA and JSA, the conclusion has been the same 100% of the time , either good or bad, which shows that there is a consistency.

6. I have known Jimmy Spence and Steve Grad since they both started in this business and have always found both very knowledgeable and helpful. I know they try to get it right every time and while , with autographs, there is plenty of room for subjective opinion, it is based on years of experience and loads of examples that continue to grow.
Because of this, I would not think of buying an autograph at a show unless one or the other of these two companies gave it their blessing. I've seen a lot of autographs but cannot even begin to compare my meager knowledge against theirs. I have also met the fellows behind the autograph alert a few times but have no experience with their company. So said, I cannot lay claim to any knowledge of the rift between the entities. As to the filing of lawsuits, the reason it is often not pursued is that it costs a ton of money and is often very hard to prove damage in dollar amounts and makes for a costly and often losing proposition with regards to where suits must be filed and proving the dollar value.

To conclude, I think it best left to each individual to set the guide lines for their collecting interest. For those of us without the experience to compare to either JSA or PSA, we rely on these companies to help avoid costly errors and I think the hobby at large, regardless of the mistakes, is far better off with such companies than we would be without such services. If you have enough knowledge to make you own decisions, that is great, but some of us are not that comfortable doing so and speaking for myself, I would not want to purchase any pricey item without such services. Just my two cents. David Bushing

[trsent]

Very good post Dave. Too many people preach that people should not trust any 3rd party authenticators, but they do not understand, the average person does not wish to arm chair authenticate themselves. They trust and like to work with companies such as PSA/DNA and JSA.

Then you mention the guys behind Autograph Alert. My favorite site. They are the ones who preach against many 3rd party autograph authenticators, but they own their own 3rd party authentication service PAAS. Their site is to attack those who they don't get along with in the industry, pretending they have issues with 3rd party authentication, but then they authenticate items through their own authentication service which they never mention on the web site!

[otismalibu]

Every single collector I have ever known, regardless of why they collect, wants to feel that their purchases are a sound investment, either for their future or the ones they leave the collection to.

And that's why everyone wants the paperwork/authentication. Buy it with paperwork and you think it might hold its value and/or it will be a more attractive sale item down the road. Get the paperwork added after the fact and you've added value to your piece.

Whether the item is legit or not really has no bearing, unless it's so terrible that no one will authenticate it.

Would someone rather have a Jordan card that was signed in person or a signed Jordan card that's been authenticated/slabbed but might be bad?

It's like graded cards. You might have to de-slab & re-submit a few times until you get the desired grade

[sammy]

I once saw a movie about this subject.

It was called; "The Neverending Story."

[cohibasmoker]

Are any of the autograph authentication "experts" court certified expert witnesses in document and/or handwriting analysis? If there are, that's the person (s) you want to authenticate your item (s).

Just an opinion - hope I didn't offend.

Jim

[dbushing1]

Jim, I am a supreme court certified expert. How does this process happen? Quite simple, you get named as an expert witness on one side of an issue that has been brought to court and the other side gets to quiz you until they are deemed satisfied that you are an expert. Problem here is , and I think most of you whom have been around a while, will well remember the famous FBI forensic autograph specialist that could not even get a Stan Musial right. They taped him in a TV special in which they proved that every call on an autograph he made during that special was dead wrong. His excuse was simply that it was his expert opinion, he backed it up with no out of pocket restitution and stated he was wrong. You might ask how an FBI certified expert could get it wrong more often than right and still be an expert. Great question and one that has yet to ever be explained. Simple truth of the matter is that to be an expert, one must look at thousands and tens of thousands of examples, keep a daily update on bonifide examples such as court documents, and have an understanding of changing styles due to age, health, consistency and other details of which I am not good enough to even explain. A lot of people get their appraisal license yet unless they follow the specific market of which they are asked to appraise, they would simply be guessing regardless of how many diplomas they have. I would take the experience of someone like Dave Meidema, Jimmy Spence or Steve Grad over some unknown with a stack of signed certificates earned sitting in a class room. I consider myself very welled versed in the classics having read most of the top 100 and sat through numerous years of classes yet I do not consider myself a writer no matter how many masterpieces I read. No offense Jim but I think experience far out weighs certificates earned off the field. David Bushing