Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

What you will notice is that somebody pulled out the year chain stitchig after I sent the jersey to Vintage authentics. Look at the pic, the year chain stitching is no longer there but still visible. I guess someone decided that was the right thing to do? I am not sure. I want to buy back this jersey and send it to MEARS so they can evaluate it as a possible coaches jersey. The jersey is obviously Vintage. I owned it for a long time and it is a neat jersey.

[hblakewolf]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

What you will notice is that somebody pulled out the year chain stitchig after I sent the jersey to Vintage authentics. Look at the pic, the year chain stitching is no longer there but still visible. I guess someone decided that was the right thing to do? I am not sure. I want to buy back this jersey and send it to MEARS so they can evaluate it as a possible coaches jersey. The jersey is obviously Vintage. I owned it for a long time and it is a neat jersey.

Are you indicating that you consigned this to Vintage Authentics and they removed the 62 once they received it?

Please elaborate.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Are you indicating that you consigned this to Vintage Authentics and they removed the 62 once they received it?

Please elaborate.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard,

When I mailed that jersey, it had the MEARS hologram and the 63 stitched in. You may confirm with Steve that this jersey was originally issued an A7. Then Jeff Scott (Birdbats expert) pointed out to me at a card show that the jersey had to be after Musial's playing days due to the the style of the Cardinals logo. The placement of the birds feet on the bat proves it to be post 1963 and I give credit to Jeff Scott for noticing this first. I decided to tell Vintage Authentics that fact and then I was informed the grade went from A7 to unable to authenticate. I asked to have the jersey back because they wanted to list it as just an auto'd jersey. I recently sent it back in to have it examined by Lou Lampson due to the fact I had talked to Lou over the phone and he wanted to examine it. I imagine he has some evidence that Musial wore a Coaches jersey. The St. Louis Cardinals museum also has a Musial coaches jersey. This was also pointed out to me by Jeff Scott. The reason the Musial jersey had the hologram on it was because they originally passed it. The LOA was to follow but the hologram was placed on the jersey which was to be a playing days A7 according to Steve. Once I relayed what Jeff Scott noticed, the hologram was already there. I would like to find out more about this jersey. When they say the numbers were restored, I wonder WHEN they were restored? Could they have been restored by the Cardinals to make it from another players jersey to a Musial coaches jersey? I don't know. I don't have a photo match.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

When I sent this jersey in to Vintage Authentics for the second time, that 62 was still stitched in. This is to confirm that I was not the one who changed anything about this Musial jersey. However, I am not sure what my opinion is about the # having been removed. If it was fraudulently put there, I guess VA should have removed it. I have to post these facts because the pics in the first few comments by me on this thread clearly show the images of the 62 being stitched there. I did not remove it and did not tell or authorize anyone to remove that stitching.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Lou might be right. MEARS is not disputing Lou's findings. They want to research the jersey themselves before being mentioned as an authenticator.

[stlbats]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Hello. First off, let me say that in no way am I doubting what you are saying, but i didnt realize that VA or any auction house had the right to alter any item someone sends them for consignment. Whether an item is legit or not, they shouldnt be able to just alter it as they see fit. If this were mine, I would be very upset if an item got altered/changed in this or any way.


Jason

[sportscentury]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Forum readers,

I received a private email tonight asking me to take a look at this thread. I want to respond to this person, but can't make heads or tails of what's going on here. I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following questions for me:

A) If you can make sense of this thread (because I am unable to), would you please provide a brief summary of what in the heck is going on here - it seems that we are missing at least a couple of big pieces of this story.

B) Why was apujols04 (David Archibald) banned?

C) Why do several of the posts by apujols04 show that he edited his own posts (e.g., posts #6 and #10, just to name a couple)? Since when can we edit our own posts? Or is this a series of misprints?

D) When was this jersey altered? And by whom?

I would really appreciate it if someone would break this down for me. This is one of the most convoluted threads that I've read in a while.

Reid

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Forum readers,

I received a private email tonight asking me to take a look at this thread. I want to respond to this person, but can't make heads or tails of what's going on here. I would appreciate it if someone could answer the following questions for me:

A) If you can make sense of this thread (because I am unable to), would you please provide a brief summary of what in the heck is going on here - it seems that we are missing at least a couple of big pieces of this story.

B) Why was apujols04 (David Archibald) banned?

C) Why do several of the posts by apujols04 show that he edited his own posts (e.g., posts #6 and #10, just to name a couple)? Since when can we edit our own posts? Or is this a series of misprints?

D) When was this jersey altered? And by whom?

I would really appreciate it if someone would break this down for me. This is one of the most convoluted threads that I've read in a while.

Reid

This is David A. I was apujols04. I was banned for not following the forum rules. Especially once I was baited by certain members. Either way, I then broke the rules and was banned and told I could never post under a pujols04 again. Eric was later nice enough to let me continue posting with this new user name. Chris Cavalier knows I am using this new username as well. There is nothing else to this story. I will answer any questions for you Reid.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

I'm not a jersey expert, but looking back at some old photos, there's an obvious characteristic from the Musial jersey that suggests it is from the mid-1960s and not one from his playing days. Here's the telltale sign -- the tail of the first bird is in front of the bat, a change made in about 1967. On a jersey from 1962 or 1963, the tail would be behind the bat. The tail was in front of the bat until just a few years ago when the logo was redesigned and the tail was placed behind the bat again, similar to the way it was during Musial's days.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

Jeff Scott's post.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

WARNING! THIS IS A RE-FRESHED YEAR OLD POST...


Back in the olden days, I sure was naive. I thought these jerseys were sold to this guy by an eldery couple, cause they wanted them to go to a "youngsportscollector". I just noticed the eBay watermark in the bottom corner of the tagging photo. I feel like a broke Sherlock Holmes for not noticing this 11 months ago. What a wild goose chase this forum was put on! I am embarressed by some of my comments on this thread. The chain-stitched name-in-tail seems to resemble many different "doctored" superstar baseball jerseys sold on eBay over the past year (Ripken, Munson, Carlton-everone remembers, right?) If we were told these were bought on eBay, it might have saved some time. Flash-forward to Vintage Authentics current auction:http://vintageauthentics.at.truition...aunbr=76378097
This shirt has re-appeared with LOAs from some of the hobby's finest. Now it's a coach's jersey with restored NOB and number. Does anyone have knowledge of Musial's coaching career with St. Louis?? Was this just added to the auction description to fit the age of the Rawlings tag and the logo change to "CARDINALS". Boy! I was a tool.
Also, is a MEARS "3" similar to an eBAY "?". Can anyone explain the dates autographed by Musial and Rose?

BTPH, The Musial and Unitas jerseys were listed on eBay. Within 24 hours of listing, they had many offers. I told them what thought and they decided to sell me the jerseys for a great price and said to enjoy them and to do as I pleased with them. I chose to upgrade to things I collect. I am still very grateful. I am auctioning the Musial jersey to establish the market value. Maybe I can afford to buy it back and pay the fees like the guys with the Tris Speaker bat did.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Hello. First off, let me say that in no way am I doubting what you are saying, but i didnt realize that VA or any auction house had the right to alter any item someone sends them for consignment. Whether an item is legit or not, they shouldnt be able to just alter it as they see fit. If this were mine, I would be very upset if an item got altered/changed in this or any way.


Jason

I talked to Steve and they removed the 62 to better prevent the jersey from ever being resold as a 1962 jersey. I understand the logic. I just wanted to make it clear -- it wasn't me who removed it. The auction house made that decision without my consent but I am not upset. It makes perfect sense and my goal is to protect the hobby when I can.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

reid: many moons ago we were able to edit our posts. then, in the spirit of making people accountable for their words, eric removed the feature.

re: the A7. mears said "no grade was issued for this jersey and was deemed "unable to authenticate"...No MEARS letter was ever issued with a grade". david a. said that it originally received an A7 from mears. who's right?

"I talked to Steve and they removed the 62 to better prevent the jersey from ever being resold as a 1962 jersey."

that's an interesting auction house policy. i wonder if he also tore the nameplate off the schmidt he recently removed to prevent it from being sold as a gamer. steve, can you chime in here? is this a new vintage policy?

rudy.

[sportscentury]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

This is David A. I was apujols04. I was banned for not following the forum rules. Especially once I was baited by certain members. Either way, I then broke the rules and was banned and told I could never post under a pujols04 again. Eric was later nice enough to let me continue posting with this new user name. Chris Cavalier knows I am using this new username as well. There is nothing else to this story. I will answer any questions for you Reid.

David,

Thanks for your note and agreeing to answer any of my other questions. While I understand that you believe that there is nothing else to this story, I have to differ with you with respect to this understanding of things. A couple of other questions:

1) Specifically, what forum rules did you violate? My interest in this information is twofold. One, this information will help me to interpret this thread. Two, I am curious because my observations have been that it is actually not that easy to get banned. Can you refer to me to the thread (or threads) where you were "baited by certain members," along with any other threads that may help me to understand this?

2) Are you solely a collector, or do you work for, or own at least part of, a hobby-related business (e.g., dealership, authentication business, auction house, etc.)?

Thanks again for your note. I continue to be intrigued by this unusual Musial jersey story.

Best,
Reid

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

David,

Thanks for your note and agreeing to answer any of my other questions. While I understand that you believe that there is nothing else to this story, I have to differ with you with respect to this understanding of things. A couple of other questions:

1) Specifically, what forum rules did you violate? My interest in this information is twofold. One, this information will help me to interpret this thread. Two, I am curious because my observations have been that it is actually not that easy to get banned. Can you refer to me to the thread (or threads) where you were "baited by certain members," along with any other threads that may help me to understand this?

2) Are you solely a collector, or do you work for, or own at least part of, a hobby-related business (e.g., dealership, authentication business, auction house, etc.)?

Thanks again for your note. I continue to be intrigued by this unusual Musial jersey story.

Best,
Reid

Reid, you should find it interesting that the most memorable examples of baiting and libel by other members were removed by Eric. He said that he was removing them to help people avaoid potential legal problems. This is because I was being attacked as a fraud but all of a sudden the items being attacked were being passed by MEARS. This is because they were legit items. When I defended myself, I got out of line along with the other posters. The difference was, they stopped when they were warned. I addressed each individual who was badmouthing me and about the 7th or 8th time I did so, Eric informed me that I was continually not following the rules. The differece was, I have 6-8 different people taking shots at me but they all just got warnings. I was warned after responding to the first few people but decided I wanted to address the rest of the people as well. Also keep in mind was banned after refusing to share information I overheard an auction house say about Eric. Eric did not like that too much as he felt I should name names if I wanted to be a member of this board. That goes against what I do unless provoked and I was not provoked by that auction house. Therefore, I did not want to bring them directly into it. Bottom line is.....the reason you can't read the posts is because Eric was trying to protect people from libel based on what they said about me and my jerseys. How would you like if Eric did that to the posts where people wrongly libeled and slandered your name? I was proven to have legit jerseys and my jerseys were proven to not be fraudulent. Unfortunately, Eric chose to not let others see the unfair comments made about me. Now that they are edited, they are gone for good. That is why I felt people on this board were choosing sides based on personal issues rather than based on the facts of the items.

[ISUbirdjersey]

Re: Stan Musial Possible 1962-1963 gamer

Reid,

I am a collector but I buy and sell to increase the value of my collection. Buying and selling Sports Memorabilia beats the S&P 500 for me. I would like to one day own one of the top auction houses in the nation. But as of right now I am just buying and selling until I find the right investors. I believe in multiple forms of authentication for most items and that is how I would run my business. I would use people like Howard to authenticate items he is an expert on in addition to using more well known companies like MEARS. I think I could do the whole auction house thing as good as how they are presently run. It is a business requiring funding and good connections with the top team specific authenticators in addition to studying all the facts. MEARS adds another level of security.