Edd Roush Records

[stkmtimo]

Hi guys,
Any records for Edd Roush available? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim

[MSpecht]

Hi Tim--

Yes, records do exist for Edd Roush for a portion of his lengthy (1913-1931) career. As his career pre-dated the use of model numbers on H & B bats, the records refer to model bats made for Roush.

The records are difficult to understand in this context, however become clearer when reviewing all records in total, as will be available in Vince Malta's soon-to-be-published book, which will be available through Game Used Universe. . The important characteristics for consideration from the information below would primarily be the length and weights referenced.


Roush used a a short (his Edd Roush Model is diagrammed at 33 inches), heavy bat. His earliest records, from 1920 to 1928, document orders of bats between 45 ounces and 48 ounces. One order, in 1925, indicates "His Roush Model / Light Weight" with no further detailed explanation. His final order from his playing days, 1931, shows weights of 46 ounces, and an order for "his model' one inch longer (34").


The model ordered by Roush eventually was referenced as R36 when model numbers were assigned. His final post career order, documented in 1956, was for his model bat 33.5 inches / 47 ounces, with a notation "as heavy as possible." The logical conclusion here is that Roush wanted this bat, whatever its intended purpose, to be characteristic of the bat he primarily used during his playing career.






Good Luck.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ksfarmboy]

I read with great interest the records of Edd Roush. I think these shipping records are great but, I also believe that since the records are incomplete for early ball players that surviving examples must also be considered.

Since I own a Roush bat I've been keeping track of pro model bats that have come up for sale. The following is a list of 125 model H&B's:

One- 1917-1920 model: 35"-37oz

Nine- 1921-1931 models: 1-33", 6-34", 1-35" and 1-36" Weights as follows: 3-39oz, 1-40oz, 1-41oz, and 1-48oz (2 bats had nails in them, one had 10 and one had around 40) and 3-unknown.

It would seem the length of the bats are pretty consistent with the surviving records but the weights fall short of the 45-48oz range. The only bat to fall into the 45-48oz range was the 36", it didn't have nails.

I don't know if this type of info is available to the public, I'm sure the authenticators would have it though.

Clint

[MSpecht]

Hi Clint--

You make several interesting points in your post that bear consideration.

First, you are correct, there is limited information available for pre 1930 orders, however the H & B ledgers from 1920 through 1929 give us our best look at not only specific orders, but ordering patterns of players. In Roussh's case, all of the documented records are of "His Model" bats, which are documented at 33 inches in the H & B diagrams that have survived. However, on the page of Roush diagrams that has survoved, there is a reference to another bat that states " See Model J.H.Allen for Edd Roush." This appears to be different than "his (Roush)" diagrammed model. Unfortunately, the diagram that would be relevent to that notation, i.e. the diagram of the Allen bat, is not available at this time. That diagram could easily be spec'ed at 34 inches, 35 inches, or whatever -- we don't know at this time.

Another point -- not all "authenticators" have access to the same information, and the information that is actually in the hands (or not in the hands) of some (relatively) highly regarded "bat guys" and "authenticators" would open the eyes of most collectors.

Anyway, is this information available to the general public? I can assure you that the responses to the questions asked on Game Used Universe forums contain well over 95 percent of the DOCUMENTED information available from the H & B records. Also, when Vince Malta's upcoming book is published later this fall, the collecting public will have immediate access to all of the documented H & B records for every Hall of Fame player from Day One. A portion of that information is currently available in the Game Used Library on this site.

Are some of the bats you mention likely to be legitimate Roush game used bats? It is very possible. But ultimately is is up to each individual collector to seek all the information at his disposal, compare it to a bat he is considering for his collection, and establish a comfort level with the bat. For me, the closer a bat matches documented records, the better. Don't look for me to add any 34 inch Roberto Clemente or Ted Williams bats to my collection anytime soon.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ksfarmboy]

Mike, I agree with you on all counts. Of the seven bats that had both length and weight measurements only one comes close to known factory records and it's four ounces light.

Thanks for the quick response and everything you guys do Here.

Clint

[ghostkid]

Very interesting thread. Have you seen the Edd Roush 40K H&B bat up for auction at Vintage Authentics on July 13? That one is 32" and weighs 37.6 ounces. Too short and too light according to the info in this thread, but it's sidewritten with "Cooper 5-15-23". It seems to me this lends some additional evidence that 40K bats were used in professional baseball.

Kevin

[MSpecht]

Hi Kevin--

You are correct. I believe that, by this time, it has been established that certain models of bats, once originally thought to be "non-professional" model bats, have been used in both the Major Leagues and Minor Leagues by professional players. The H & B bats that usually come under scrutiny in that respect are Model 250 bats and Model 40k / Kork Grip bats. I don't think that the question any more is "were they ever used professionally?" The question now is, "How extensive was the professional use of these models?" Lets take a look.

The best evidence available is, as has been stated before, incomplete for the period from 1920 to 1929. Pre-1920 records are very scarce and damaged. Post-1930 records are much more complete, but it is pretty universally agreed that some "holes' may exist in these records (but not as many as some people would have you beklieve). The computerized records from mid-1981 to the present are very complete, and provide additional information previously unavailable, when they are able to be accessed.

All that being said, the main point to remember is that, as a collector, you must establish your own personal comfort zone with the evidence and provenance surrounding any specific bat you are considering for your collection. Here's what I mean, using the models referenced above as examples:

For this post, I reviewed the surviving documented records for all Hall of Fame players whose career touched some part of the period from 1920 through 1929. This consisted of 59 Hall of Famers, from Pete Alexander to Ross Youngs, for whom a cumulative 726 (approximately) specific, individual bat orders have been uncovered.

In reference to Model 250 bats, in the existing documented records from 1920 through 1929, there are only 2 references found -- one for Kiki Cuyler (4/18/23) and one for Babe Ruth (8/23/20.) To be more specific, out of 49 documented orders for Cuyler between 1920 and 1929, only one order was for Model 250 bats. For The Babe, it was one order out of 48 individual orders from that period. Cumulatively, for all 59 Hall of Fame players of the period, Model 250 bats are ordered/referenced twice out of approximately 726 existing documented orders.

For Model 40k bats, a similar pattern emerges. Of the 726 documented Hall of Famer existing orders, there were twelve references to 40k orders-- one each for Babe Ruth (4/10/23 - 1 order of 48 documented) and Travis Jackson (4/1/25 - 1 order out of 13 documented), and 10 orders for Joe Sewell (1920-1926). Put another way, cumulatively for all 59 Hall of Fame players of the period, Model 40k bats were ordered/referenced twelve times out of approximately 726 existing documented orders. If you were to toss out the Joe Sewell records (10 orders out of 20 documented orders), the percentages look much like the Model 250 bats above.

So what's the point of this exercise? Only to provide the collector with the most, and best, and the SPECIFIC information available with which to make informed decisions -- information that you do not get anywhere else other than Game used Universe, certainly not in the specificity and thoroughness of the presentation of documented records.

Ultimately, you have to think, what is the dollar difference I would be willing to pay for, say, a Model 40k Babe Ruth bat that I know he ordered at least once during his career, and a Ruth bat that matched documented factory records and was consistent with his documented ordering patterns throughout his career? I think the dollar difference between the two bats would be very, very significant. But, thats the fun of collecting. Collectors are currently able to pick up bats such as Kevin mentions (the side-writing is awesome, by the way, and, in my mind, establishes provenabce that the bat was used by some professional player before being sent in by the side-written player) for prices well below what a more characteristic sample would cost. Maybe in 1 or 3 or 5 years addirtional evidence will surface that causes a huge increase in value of those bats. From the evidence currently available, however, I think the value difference is rather significant.

As a member of the Game Used Universe team, an authenticator for one of the major authentication companies, a private authenticator, and an author of information about this segment of the Game Used Collecting hobby, I lean (heavily) toward the most probable and most likely scenario when authenticating a bat.

As Bobby Kennedy used to frequently say about himself before his untimely asassination:

"Some men see things as they are and say why.I dream things that never were and say why not."

That is a very good trait in a politician, but probably not that great of a trait in a bat authenticator.

Thanks for your participation on this, and other, forums, Kevin. Your willingness to share information and inform all of us of the results of your personal research is of great benefit to all. Please feel free to contact me anytime.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[jboosted92]

Hi Kevin--

You are correct. I believe that, by this time, it has been established that certain models of bats, once originally thought to be "non-professional" model bats, have been used in both the Major Leagues and Minor Leagues by professional players. The H & B bats that usually come under scrutiny in that respect are Model 250 bats and Model 40k / Kork Grip bats. I don't think that the question any more is "were they ever used professionally?" The question now is, "How extensive was the professional use of these models?" Lets take a look.

The best evidence available is, as has been stated before, incomplete for the period from 1920 to 1929. Pre-1920 records are very scarce and damaged. Post-1930 records are much more complete, but it is pretty universally agreed that some "holes' may exist in these records (but not as many as some people would have you beklieve). The computerized records from mid-1981 to the present are very complete, and provide additional information previously unavailable, when they are able to be accessed.

All that being said, the main point to remember is that, as a collector, you must establish your own personal comfort zone with the evidence and provenance surrounding any specific bat you are considering for your collection. Here's what I mean, using the models referenced above as examples:

For this post, I reviewed the surviving documented records for all Hall of Fame players whose career touched some part of the period from 1920 through 1929. This consisted of 59 Hall of Famers, from Pete Alexander to Ross Youngs, for whom a cumulative 726 (approximately) specific, individual bat orders have been uncovered.

In reference to Model 250 bats, in the existing documented records from 1920 through 1929, there are only 2 references found -- one for Kiki Cuyler (4/18/23) and one for Babe Ruth (8/23/20.) To be more specific, out of 49 documented orders for Cuyler between 1920 and 1929, only one order was for Model 250 bats. For The Babe, it was one order out of 48 individual orders from that period. Cumulatively, for all 59 Hall of Fame players of the period, Model 250 bats are ordered/referenced twice out of approximately 726 existing documented orders.

For Model 40k bats, a similar pattern emerges. Of the 726 documented Hall of Famer existing orders, there were twelve references to 40k orders-- one each for Babe Ruth (4/10/23 - 1 order of 48 documented) and Travis Jackson (4/1/25 - 1 order out of 13 documented), and 10 orders for Joe Sewell (1920-1926). Put another way, cumulatively for all 59 Hall of Fame players of the period, Model 40k bats were ordered/referenced twelve times out of approximately 726 existing documented orders. If you were to toss out the Joe Sewell records (10 orders out of 20 documented orders), the percentages look much like the Model 250 bats above.

So what's the point of this exercise? Only to provide the collector with the most, and best, and the SPECIFIC information available with which to make informed decisions -- information that you do not get anywhere else other than Game used Universe, certainly not in the specificity and thoroughness of the presentation of documented records.

Ultimately, you have to think, what is the dollar difference I would be willing to pay for, say, a Model 40k Babe Ruth bat that I know he ordered at least once during his career, and a Ruth bat that matched documented factory records and was consistent with his documented ordering patterns throughout his career? I think the dollar difference between the two bats would be very, very significant. But, thats the fun of collecting. Collectors are currently able to pick up bats such as Kevin mentions (the side-writing is awesome, by the way, and, in my mind, establishes provenabce that the bat was used by some professional player before being sent in by the side-written player) for prices well below what a more characteristic sample would cost. Maybe in 1 or 3 or 5 years addirtional evidence will surface that causes a huge increase in value of those bats. From the evidence currently available, however, I think the value difference is rather significant.

As a member of the Game Used Universe team, an authenticator for one of the major authentication companies, a private authenticator, and an author of information about this segment of the Game Used Collecting hobby, I lean (heavily) toward the most probable and most likely scenario when authenticating a bat.

As Bobby Kennedy used to frequently say about himself before his untimely asassination:

"Some men see things as they are and say why.I dream things that never were and say why not."

That is a very good trait in a politician, but probably not that great of a trait in a bat authenticator.

Thanks for your participation on this, and other, forums, Kevin. Your willingness to share information and inform all of us of the results of your personal research is of great benefit to all. Please feel free to contact me anytime.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

With bats that few records do exist for, like 40ks + 250s, there are certain factors that need to be attributed do command a value.

Are they Hand-turned?
Do they pose similar traits? (Tape, wear and tear, weight + length that the particular player used )
Picutures of L.S. 125s are everywhere, but what about Kork Grips or 250s?

In the LS dealer catalog the 250 and 40k were the most expensive bats, and with pictures and ledgers surfaced of HOF's using them, its somewhat safe to assume that many pro-ball players used them. In fact, just like shoes, when NIKE make a new model, they would send freebies to the players.... I would assume L.S. tried to market there 40ks just the same when they introduced them in 1914.

Attribution is key when it comes to determining value. Compare these bats, to other bats 100% documented by the player. I made a 40k purchase in the assumption that this particular 40k bat would surface as a legit game by the such player, awhile back, and the research and documenation now available has risen the demand for this bat. Photo attribution has also surfaced which was great as well...

Same goes for Hanna Batrite, Kren, ZINN BECK. very little documented info. So I suggest, do your research, know the past, and find the photos....because I still believe Bat Collectiing although advanced significantly recently, still will uncover more in the coming years!

[ksfarmboy]

I believe that pre 1926 Spalding bats fall into the same category as the Krens, Hanna's, and Zinn's as well as 40k's and 250 models. Spalding was one if not the top bat manufacturer at one time, but evidence is hard to come by. Does anyone know what happened to the Spalding bat factory and their records? Were they just trashed as their popularity declined and pro model production ceased?

Clint

[MSpecht]

I agree and believe that we are saying the same thing....do your homework. When considering all of the bats listed in the two posts immediately above , many factors must be taken into consideration.....I believe, however, that if these bats were as widely used as some people would have you believe, the evidence would be greater than exists today. As pointed out above, photos of Model 125 bats can be found "all over the place," yet 40k and 250 photos are rarely seen. I suggest that consideration must be given to that fact, as it currently exists. The ledger records referenced in my post comprise ALL of the Hall of Famer records that have been documented to date. Yes, 40k and 250 bats are referenced in them, but look at the numbers -- a couple references for each in over 700 available records.

All I am suggesting is that collectors cannot automatically assume that any bat that has been 'authenticated' as a possible professional bat is automatically that --the evidence isn't there to support such an assumption as reasonable. To the contrary, there is evidence to suggest the opposite -- that the use of 40k and 250 bats in the professional leagues was more of a rarity than being the norm, and likely, from the documented evidence, could not even be termed commonplace.

So again, do your own research.. Are there 40k and 250 and Zinn Beck and Spalding and Kren and Reach and other bats out there that were used by professional players in professional games? Absolutely! Do as many of these professionally-used alternate-brand and alternate-model bats exist as their non-professional (retail) counterparts? The existing evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of these bats are "non-professional."

So where does that leave the collector? If one is astute and can match up other attributes of a bat with known, documented game -use characteristics of a specific player, documented evidence of ordering patterns in factory records, and manufacturing nuances thought to pertain primarily to professional model bats, then the opportunity exists to find some real gems.

Good luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com