The Carryover Factor

[joelsabi]

We as collectors rely on year tags on jerseys, center branding on bats, and baseball logos on baseballs as one of the factors when determining the origin of a game used item. When manufacturers change the year tags, center brandings, or baseball logos, sometimes there is some inconsistencies that happen which can be explained by a carryover of a product. Manufacturers, team equipment managers, and players will not throw out equipment if it is usable. For example, Dave caught a 2000 HR baseball at Wrigley with a Bulig logo, Stephenson wore a 1993 Mets Jersey with a 1992 year tag, or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

Just curious about your opinion on carryover since I have seen collectors pass on an item for this very reason.

Do you think carryover is an issue when selecting items for your collection? Do you think it affects the value of the item either positively or negatively compared to the value of otherwise identical equipment from that year? Would the length of the carryover (example, ½ season, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years) ever factor into your decision? Does the era in which the item was produced also affect your decision as well.

[legaleagle92481]

We as collectors rely on year tags on jerseys, center branding on bats, and baseball logos on baseballs as one of the factors when determining the origin of a game used item. When manufacturers change the year tags, center brandings, or baseball logos, sometimes there is some inconsistencies that happen which can be explained by a carryover of a product. Manufacturers, team equipment managers, and players will not throw out equipment if it is usable. For example, Dave caught a 2000 HR baseball at Wrigley with a Bulig logo, Stephenson wore a 1993 Mets Jersey with a 1992 year tag, or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

Just curious about your opinion on carryover since I have seen collectors pass on an item for this very reason.

Do you think carryover is an issue when selecting items for your collection? Do you think it affects the value of the item either positively or negatively compared to the value of otherwise identical equipment from that year? Would the length of the carryover (example, ½ season, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years) ever factor into your decision? Does the era in which the item was produced also affect your decision as well.

Not really as long as the item is authentic it does not affect my purchasing decision one way or the other. In some cases would it be great to have the item tagged from a certain year? Of course like a Yankees jersey from 2009 tagged as 09 when they won the World Series rather than tagged as 08 when they did not make the playoffs.

[cigarman44]

I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

[ironmanfan]

I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

Actually, I saw the collection of game used baseballs that were used in the game in Minneapolis when Cal Ripken Jr. got his 3000th hit in April of 2000 and there actually was a couple of the old OAL balls in there....

[joelsabi]

Actually, I saw the collection of game used baseballs that were used in the game in Minneapolis when Cal Ripken Jr. got his 3000th hit in April of 2000 and there actually was a couple of the old OAL balls in there....

Dave caught the old OAL Budig baseball in April of 2000 too. So at what months into the season, if any, would you start having doubts?

I was curious about the carryover on baseballs in 2000 when they switched to the unified ball. I was offered a National League ball that was being sold as a ball from 2000. I figured there might be some carryover but was told that it couldn't have happened. So I passed on the ball.

Who told you it was not possible and what was their reasoning in saying that? Do you know what month the baseball was used?

[cigarman44]

Dave caught the old OAL Budig baseball in April of 2000 too. So at what months into the season, if any, would you start having doubts?



Who told you it was not possible and what was their reasoning in saying that? Do you know what month the baseball was used?

The ball in question was claimed to be from Sept of 2000. I asked Jeff Scott about it. I kinda had my doubts that late in the season as well. The guy said he got it from a photographer at ground level from that game. I wonder if it could had been a BP ball that was held over and he got it in batting practice.

[sox83cubs84]

FTR, the Konerko HR I got from Comiskey Park (not Wrigley Field) with the Budig label was during the Saturday game of a mid-April White Sox-Tigers series.
Dave M.
Chicago area

[joelsabi]

FTR, the Konerko HR I got from Comiskey Park (not Wrigley Field) with the Budig label was during the Saturday game of a mid-April White Sox-Tigers series.
Dave M.
Chicago area

Thanks Dave,

Hope you don't mind me mentioning it since it was the only example I knew of until the Ripken baseballs were mentioned in this thread.

My favorite crossover example for a jersey is the Maris 1960 Jersey.

[xpress34]

My favorite crossover example for a jersey is the Maris 1960 Jersey.

Joel -

I was going to use that example!!! Especially in light of the statement earlier about someone not wanting a 2009 Post Season Yankees jersey if tagged as 2008 even though the carry-over is possible.

For those that don't know, the jersey Joel is referring to is THE Jersey Maris was wearing when he hit #61 in 1961. Due to the 'fingerprint' of pinstripe jerseys and the numerous photos from that game, many jerseys were compared and none photo matched and it was thought for a long time that the jersey was lost to history until a 1960 jersey in a private collection turned out to be the match to the photos. It wasn't uncommon then for teams to carry over a jersey from the previous season for a returning player just in case of emergencies... and on that day for whatever reason, maris was wearing his 1960 jersey.

That's one carry-over I'd like to own!!!

Now Joel - and I'm surprised no one else caught your typo - I'd like to see photo proof of this one:

... or Thurman Munson used a bicentennial bat in 1997.

18 years after his all too early exit from this mortal plane. (Just giving you grief Joel! And you as a Mod HAVE the EDIT feature! )

Anyway, I would like to add to this discussion (if I may) the fact that the same thing happens in the Auto side of the hobby - if a guy played his career on an AL team - do want his Auto on an NL ball? There are a TON of Ruth's out there on vintage NL balls.

As an example of why you have to do your research (besides the fact the guy may have done a coaching or managing stint in the opposite league) is this ball I just picked up and why I bought it even though it was on the 'wrong league's' ball:

(I will add pics of this piece as soon as I have time to take them, edit them (resizing), etc.)

This ball was a steal no matter how you slice it... on eBay, no other bids - won for $99.99 FREE shipping w/ JSA LOA for Clean Sweep Auctions Lot#887

It is listed as a 1933 New York Giants ball w/ decent Hubbell and possible faint Ott.

From the seller's input and research, he was able to pull a few more names:

Hal Schumacher
Hi Bell
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Jo-Jo Moore
Homer Peel
Lefty O'Doul
Glenn Spencer
Travis Jackson
Blondy Ryan

It appears to have Bill Terry on the Sweet Spot (which would make sense as he was Player/Mgr).

Here's where it gets interesting... it is signed on a Blue/Red Stitch Official AMERICAN League (William Harridge) Ball. The Giants were a NATIONAL League team.

I did my research and Harridge became AL Pres in 1931. ALL Balls (AL and NL) went to ALL Red Stitching in 1934.

In 1933 the Giants were World Series Champs defeating the Washington Senators.

It is possible (and would not be a huge stretch since 'store model' balls from this time period [Great Depression] are scarce) that this is a GU ball from one of the 1933 WS Games played at Griffith Stadium.

The ball itself - regardless of sigs and heritage - is worth around $600 to $700 + just due to scarcity of early AL and NL multi color stitched balls and that alone is what I based my bid on. The autos and or it's potential provenance are icing on the cake.


All the best -

Chris

[joelsabi]

Joel -

I was going to use that example!!! Especially in light of the statement earlier about someone not wanting a 2009 Post Season Yankees jersey if tagged as 2008 even though the carry-over is possible.



Now Joel - and I'm surprised no one else caught your typo - I'd like to see photo proof of this one:

18 years after his all too early exit from this mortal plane. (Just giving you grief Joel! And you as a Mod HAVE the EDIT feature! )

Anyway, I would like to add to this discussion (if I may) the fact that the same thing happens in the Auto side of the hobby - if a guy played his career on an AL team - do want his Auto on an NL ball? There are a TON of Ruth's out there on vintage NL balls.

As an example of why you have to do your research (besides the fact the guy may have done a coaching or managing stint in the opposite league) is this ball I just picked up and why I bought it even though it was on the 'wrong league's' ball:

(I will add pics of this piece as soon as I have time to take them, edit them (resizing), etc.)

This ball was a steal no matter how you slice it... on eBay, no other bids - won for $99.99 FREE shipping w/ JSA LOA for Clean Sweep Auctions Lot#887

It is listed as a 1933 New York Giants ball w/ decent Hubbell and possible faint Ott.

From the seller's input and research, he was able to pull a few more names:

Hal Schumacher
Hi Bell
Freddie Fitzsimmons
Jo-Jo Moore
Homer Peel
Lefty O'Doul
Glenn Spencer
Travis Jackson
Blondy Ryan

It appears to have Bill Terry on the Sweet Spot (which would make sense as he was Player/Mgr).

Here's where it gets interesting... it is signed on a Blue/Red Stitch Official AMERICAN League (William Harridge) Ball. The Giants were a NATIONAL League team.

I did my research and Harridge became AL Pres in 1931. ALL Balls (AL and NL) went to ALL Red Stitching in 1934.

In 1933 the Giants were World Series Champs defeating the Washington Senators.

It is possible (and would not be a huge stretch since 'store model' balls from this time period [Great Depression] are scarce) that this is a GU ball from one of the 1933 WS Games played at Griffith Stadium.

The ball itself - regardless of sigs and heritage - is worth around $600 to $700 + just due to scarcity of early AL and NL multi color stitched balls and that alone is what I based my bid on. The autos and or it's potential provenance are icing on the cake.


All the best -

Chris

Chris,

You mean independence wasn't in 1796?

I thought about posing the Maris Jersey as a scenario to Justin but I don't know him too well yet. Besides you tell the story better than I would have.

Thanks for the additional example too. One of the things that strikes me about carryovers is that I see them as a possible steal as many collector will shy away from such item if they are not open to the possibility of crossovers, resulting in less bids at auction.