Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

[aeneas01]

It's really a shame that auction houses just accept anything with an LOA and pass it onto it's customers....

exactly nickacs, and that's my point - it seems that heritage was perfectly happy passing this helmet along because it arrived with an loa, an apparent get out of jail free card.

this strikes me as obvious because this helmet is extremely easy to research - in fact it's about as easy as it comes. butkus could have only worn the thing during the 1971 or 1972 seasons. tons of photos and film footage out there of him during this period and none match the helmet (and i don't mean photomatch). heritage took a look and came up empty as well. yet they let it slide.

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[slats7]

here's another look at what i'm talking about - the facemasks clip screws and the helmet's center rivet line up differently when comparing the offered helmet to the game photos:

Here's a Butkus pic from an old Ebay auction. Not sure what season it's from. Anyway, it resembles the one in the auction in terms of the center rivet. I doubt it's the Heritage helmet due to scratch marks and other issues, but we now know for sure that he at one time wore a helmet with a "low" center rivet.

[slats7]

Update: The Butkus photo I posted was taken on October 29, 1972.

[TriplexXxSports]

Update: The Butkus photo I posted was taken on October 29, 1972.

That is quite interesting. I noticed that Robert highlighted the rivet location between the face mask and lower chinstrap button.

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet.

Very interesting indeed!

[slats7]

That is quite interesting. I noticed that Robert highlighted the rivet location between the face mask and lower chinstrap button.

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet.

Very interesting indeed!

Here's a few examples from 1970 (allegedly), although the seller could be wrong about the date. Again, low center rivet.

[aeneas01]

Here's a Butkus pic... Anyway, it resembles the one in the auction in terms of the center rivet.

sure, the helmet butkus is wearing in the photo you provided "resembles" the auction helmet - as would any molded navy tk model helmet worn by a chicago bear during that era. in fact any early '70s molded navy tk model helmet found on ebay would "resemble" the auction helmet as well. but i don't think that's what the bidder that won the helmet was looking for, i don't think he was hoping for a helmet that simply "resembled" what butkus wore. as far as the guy that purchased this thing from mastro for $12k is concerned, i'm pretty sure he expected it to be the exact helmet shown in the iconic game photo mastro provided in the lot description because, well, that's what mastro claimed.

...but we now know for sure that he at one time wore a helmet with a "low" center rivet.

ok, not sure what to make of this statement - you seem to imply that circa 1971 and 1972 photos of a "low center rivet" butkus helmet have eluded everyone until now which, no offense, is absurd. they're everywhere - anyone taking even a casual look into this helmet has already found them, including heritage.

as i mentioned in my original post, it's apparent butkus wore two helmets during the 1971 and 1972 seasons (he also wore a very similar helmet 1970 as well) - what's equally apparent is there are a ton of photos and film clips of butkus wearing both of these helmets, including the "low center rivet" helmet you mentioned. and neither match the auction helmet. heritage has plenty of photos of the "low center rivet" helmet - i know, because i sent them to them.

fwiw the photos i chose to use in my earlier comparison to start this thread were of the other helmet, the same helmet butkus was sporting in the iconic photo that mastro included in their lot description. why did i choose to use photos of this particular butkus helmet and not the "low center rivet" helmet? simple - to show that mastro had grossly misrepresented the auction helmet by claiming it was the same one that appeared in the photo they provided.

so here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented heritage, the same challenge i mentioned earlier: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one.

we can start with one of the correct circa photos you posted, a "low center rivet" photo, below right. i've included a shot of the same helmet, a side view, below left (note the matching impact marks). does this match the auction helmet? nope. where's the rear chinstap snap? how about that facemask mount position?



here are additional photos of the same correct circa "low center rivet" helmet pictured above, as i mentioned lots of these photos are available - do any of these match the auction the helmet? nope.







now let's compare the helmet shown in the above photos with the auction helmet - is it a match?



1. butkus's "low center rivet" game helmet wasn't fitted with a rear chinstrap snap as is the auction helmet. and the other helmet he wore during this period was fitted with a rear chinstrap that was mounted in an entirely different location.

2. compare the side facemask mounting positions - note how close the helmet clip is to the earhole in the game photo.

3. compare the rivet/mask position - note how close the mask is to the rivet in the game photo.

4. compare the distance of the mask from the helmet - in the game photo you see the plastic helmet shell through the green triangle because the mask is mounted close to butkus's face. this is not the case with the auction helmet.

let's take a look at the following photo comparison again, a shot of one of the photos you provided (right) and a side shot of the same helmet i included for comparison purposes (left). heritage simply points to frontal photos such as the one on the right and says "the rear snap and facemask mount position are inconclusive, therefore we're comfortable with running the helmet." of course there are plenty of side shots that are indeed conclusive, such as the one on the left - heritage simply chose to ignore them for obvious reasons.




so, again, here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented to heritage: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one. heck, thrown in 1970 photos as well if you think they will help.

and while you're doing this keep in mind that the buyer probably isn't interested in a game photo that "resembles" what butkus wore - the buyer is most likely interested in seeing a game photo that offers sound evidence that the auction helmet is indeed a butkus gamer. something heritage and mastro clearly did not have.

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[aeneas01]

Here's a few examples from 1970 (allegedly), although the seller could be wrong about the date. Again, low center rivet.

even if the two photos you posted were not from the 1970 season (which they are), yet from the seasons in question, what do you consider their significance to be in this matter? i mean they clearly don't match the auction helmet.

here's a closeup up of the two 1970 photos you posted (you can tell they're the same helmet based on the impact marks circled in yellow) - note that in the left photo you can see the rear chinstrap snap which has been mounted to the far back of butkus's helmet, unlike the auction helmet. as i mentioned earlier, heritage would choose to look at the front view photo on the right and call the chinstrap snap position inconclusive even though conclusive evidence exists that proves otherwise:



fwiw, here's another 1970 shot of butkus that shows the chinstrap snap setup as above, which is different than the auction helmet - so, again, what's the point of the photos you posted in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet?



and here's the other photo you posted which, fwiw, is from the correct period in question - so what's the significance of this photo in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet? clearly it is not fitted with a rear chinstrap snap nor is facemask mount position consistent with the auction helmet:




the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

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[aeneas01]

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet. Very interesting indeed!

which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

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[TriplexXxSports]

which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

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Robert,

The one that slats7 originally posted. All I meant by that is that it shows the low rivet being below the screws in the mounting clips and it shows a chin strap button below the ear and mounted more in the jaw area, which also 'resembles' the position of ONE of the buttons on the Butkus. 2 character traits that neither auction house cared to pick up on when digging through photos.

It is obvious, with attention to detail, that there is a whrilwind of problems with the offered helmet. What's interesting to me (as you mentioned above) is that there ARE pics out there that "resemble" the offered helmet a little better than the original photo(s) provided.

[slats7]

snipped

the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

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I don't know what all the bickering/agitation is about. I've already conceded that the Heritage helmet almost certainly doesn't align with any of the photos I've provided, save for the low center rivet. It was irresponsible of them to market it as a genuine Butkus absent definitive proof. The thing is, you spent so much time on the Mastro auction, emphasizing the parallel rivets, that you left the impression that he never wore a helmet with a center rivet that low. You did mention that he wore two types of helmets during those years, but you only emphasized the differing chinstrap setups and low facemask mounts. Since Heritage never tried to pass it off as the same helmet in the iconic 1971 photo, I'm not sure why it was necessary to revisit the Mastro auction. It only added to the confusion.