Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

Here's a Butkus pic... Anyway, it resembles the one in the auction in terms of the center rivet.

sure, the helmet butkus is wearing in the photo you provided "resembles" the auction helmet - as would any molded navy tk model helmet worn by a chicago bear during that era. in fact any early '70s molded navy tk model helmet found on ebay would "resemble" the auction helmet as well. but i don't think that's what the bidder that won the helmet was looking for, i don't think he was hoping for a helmet that simply "resembled" what butkus wore. as far as the guy that purchased this thing from mastro for $12k is concerned, i'm pretty sure he expected it to be the exact helmet shown in the iconic game photo mastro provided in the lot description because, well, that's what mastro claimed.

...but we now know for sure that he at one time wore a helmet with a "low" center rivet.

ok, not sure what to make of this statement - you seem to imply that circa 1971 and 1972 photos of a "low center rivet" butkus helmet have eluded everyone until now which, no offense, is absurd. they're everywhere - anyone taking even a casual look into this helmet has already found them, including heritage.

as i mentioned in my original post, it's apparent butkus wore two helmets during the 1971 and 1972 seasons (he also wore a very similar helmet 1970 as well) - what's equally apparent is there are a ton of photos and film clips of butkus wearing both of these helmets, including the "low center rivet" helmet you mentioned. and neither match the auction helmet. heritage has plenty of photos of the "low center rivet" helmet - i know, because i sent them to them.

fwiw the photos i chose to use in my earlier comparison to start this thread were of the other helmet, the same helmet butkus was sporting in the iconic photo that mastro included in their lot description. why did i choose to use photos of this particular butkus helmet and not the "low center rivet" helmet? simple - to show that mastro had grossly misrepresented the auction helmet by claiming it was the same one that appeared in the photo they provided.

so here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented heritage, the same challenge i mentioned earlier: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one.

we can start with one of the correct circa photos you posted, a "low center rivet" photo, below right. i've included a shot of the same helmet, a side view, below left (note the matching impact marks). does this match the auction helmet? nope. where's the rear chinstap snap? how about that facemask mount position?



here are additional photos of the same correct circa "low center rivet" helmet pictured above, as i mentioned lots of these photos are available - do any of these match the auction the helmet? nope.







now let's compare the helmet shown in the above photos with the auction helmet - is it a match?



1. butkus's "low center rivet" game helmet wasn't fitted with a rear chinstrap snap as is the auction helmet. and the other helmet he wore during this period was fitted with a rear chinstrap that was mounted in an entirely different location.

2. compare the side facemask mounting positions - note how close the helmet clip is to the earhole in the game photo.

3. compare the rivet/mask position - note how close the mask is to the rivet in the game photo.

4. compare the distance of the mask from the helmet - in the game photo you see the plastic helmet shell through the green triangle because the mask is mounted close to butkus's face. this is not the case with the auction helmet.

let's take a look at the following photo comparison again, a shot of one of the photos you provided (right) and a side shot of the same helmet i included for comparison purposes (left). heritage simply points to frontal photos such as the one on the right and says "the rear snap and facemask mount position are inconclusive, therefore we're comfortable with running the helmet." of course there are plenty of side shots that are indeed conclusive, such as the one on the left - heritage simply chose to ignore them for obvious reasons.




so, again, here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented to heritage: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one. heck, thrown in 1970 photos as well if you think they will help.

and while you're doing this keep in mind that the buyer probably isn't interested in a game photo that "resembles" what butkus wore - the buyer is most likely interested in seeing a game photo that offers sound evidence that the auction helmet is indeed a butkus gamer. something heritage and mastro clearly did not have.

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[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

Here's a few examples from 1970 (allegedly), although the seller could be wrong about the date. Again, low center rivet.

even if the two photos you posted were not from the 1970 season (which they are), yet from the seasons in question, what do you consider their significance to be in this matter? i mean they clearly don't match the auction helmet.

here's a closeup up of the two 1970 photos you posted (you can tell they're the same helmet based on the impact marks circled in yellow) - note that in the left photo you can see the rear chinstrap snap which has been mounted to the far back of butkus's helmet, unlike the auction helmet. as i mentioned earlier, heritage would choose to look at the front view photo on the right and call the chinstrap snap position inconclusive even though conclusive evidence exists that proves otherwise:



fwiw, here's another 1970 shot of butkus that shows the chinstrap snap setup as above, which is different than the auction helmet - so, again, what's the point of the photos you posted in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet?



and here's the other photo you posted which, fwiw, is from the correct period in question - so what's the significance of this photo in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet? clearly it is not fitted with a rear chinstrap snap nor is facemask mount position consistent with the auction helmet:




the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

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[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet. Very interesting indeed!

which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

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[TriplexXxSports]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

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Robert,

The one that slats7 originally posted. All I meant by that is that it shows the low rivet being below the screws in the mounting clips and it shows a chin strap button below the ear and mounted more in the jaw area, which also 'resembles' the position of ONE of the buttons on the Butkus. 2 character traits that neither auction house cared to pick up on when digging through photos.

It is obvious, with attention to detail, that there is a whrilwind of problems with the offered helmet. What's interesting to me (as you mentioned above) is that there ARE pics out there that "resemble" the offered helmet a little better than the original photo(s) provided.

[slats7]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

snipped

the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

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I don't know what all the bickering/agitation is about. I've already conceded that the Heritage helmet almost certainly doesn't align with any of the photos I've provided, save for the low center rivet. It was irresponsible of them to market it as a genuine Butkus absent definitive proof. The thing is, you spent so much time on the Mastro auction, emphasizing the parallel rivets, that you left the impression that he never wore a helmet with a center rivet that low. You did mention that he wore two types of helmets during those years, but you only emphasized the differing chinstrap setups and low facemask mounts. Since Heritage never tried to pass it off as the same helmet in the iconic 1971 photo, I'm not sure why it was necessary to revisit the Mastro auction. It only added to the confusion.

[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

I don't know what all the bickering/agitation is about..

didn't mean to come across as abrasive or combative - i suppose your posts with the photos just reminded me of a tactic employed by some auction houses from time to time: point to similarities while ignoring the fact that it's clearly not the same item in question. i know this wasn't your intention....

I'm not sure why it was necessary to revisit the Mastro auction. It only added to the confusion...

if possible, i think it's important to show how a bunk item was first deemed authentic, i.e. how it first made it's way into circulation. in this case mastro compared the auction helmet to an iconic photo of butkus and claimed that it was the same helmet. from there it made the rounds as authentic. not sure why this was confusing...

It is obvious, with attention to detail, that there is a whrilwind of problems with the offered helmet. What's interesting to me (as you mentioned above) is that there ARE pics out there that "resemble" the offered helmet a little better than the original photo(s) provided.

no doubt txs - mastro could have at least selected a photo of butkus sporting the other helmet as it would have been a much better (albeit only frontal) match. i suppose the good news is that buyers get fleeced for less and less each time this helmet surfaces - it sold for about 30% less at heritage when compared to what mastro got for it...

it would be nice to see heritage contact the buyer to tell him that the accompanying loa was based on a photo of butkus that, upon further scrutiny, did not match the auction helmet. and that after further review, heritage has been unable to find a single photo or film clip that confirms butkus did indeed wear the offered helmet. yep, that would be nice to see...

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[TriplexXxSports]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

......it would be nice to see heritage contact the buyer to tell him that the accompanying loa was based on a photo of butkus that, upon further scrutiny, did not match the auction helmet. and that after further review, heritage has been unable to find a single photo or film clip that confirms butkus did indeed wear the offered helmet. yep, that would be nice to see...

What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

That would be the noble/honest way to do it but unfortunately, in this day and age, it will show up again at another auction firm and we will be having the same debate. Heritage turned a blind eye (despite being properly informed) cashed out, and wiped their hands clean of the whole ordeal. Its someone else problem now, and that's a shame.

I just feel for the person who forked out the cash, probably relying mostly on the Auction Houses reputation and description of authentication.

[slats7]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

That would be the noble/honest way to do it but unfortunately, in this day and age, it will show up again at another auction firm and we will be having the same debate. Heritage turned a blind eye (despite being properly informed) cashed out, and wiped their hands clean of the whole ordeal. Its someone else problem now, and that's a shame.

I just feel for the person who forked out the cash, probably relying mostly on the Auction Houses reputation and description of authentication.

They no doubt hope that bidders don't do their homework or stumble upon forums like this one. PT Barnum was right when it came to "suckers."

[trsent]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

As I posted before. I find the problem here is that Heritage has a policy to trust authenticators even when one of the most respected game used helmet experts in the world comes to their attention with facts showing there are issues.

The big head of the coin/currency dealers now in the sports memorabilia business showing no respect for facts possibly selling questionable merchandise is a shame to the industry.

I would expect more from Heritage, but I guess when your father owns the company you believe that you are better than one of the leading game used helmet experts in the world since you have a letter from an authenticator who didn't do the homework Robert did.

Chris Ivy? Are you reading this? You should man up and do the right thing before we lose more customers in this industry who spent their hard earned money for questionable items.

[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

keep in mind most auction houses actively purchase collections and/or individual pieces outright as well - as such an auction house can be on the hook for much more than just a commission percentage. hypothetically, assume heritage actually purchased the butkus helmet outright for $6k or so knowing it sold for more than twice as much at mastro. in this case heritage would be out much more than $2k in buyer/seller fees if forced to eat it.

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[aeneas01]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

recently came across this fantastic rare photo of joe namath during the 1968 afl east/west allstar classic played on 01/19/69, taken just one week after he led the jets to an improbable super bowl 3 victory over the heavily favored baltimore colts.

it immediately brought to mind the embarrassing research job heritage did on a helmet they were convinced was namath's sb3 gamer, a helmet they described as "...arguably the most significant football artifact ever to reach the auction block" and which they claimed was given to the owner right after the super bowl. heritage listed the helmet with a starting bid of $50,000 in their 2008 signature auction. but, as it turned out, the helmet was proven not to be namath's sb3 gamer - in fact, as it turned out, the helmet didn't even belong to namath, he never wore it. heritage was forced to yank the thing.

after such an ugly and public black eye one would think heritage might consider exercising a little more diligence in their research the next time around but, alas, the butkus helmet clearly suggests otherwise....

anyway, what i found especially entertaining about this photo is that namath is sporting his sb3 helmet in this allstar game - the side "jets" decals have been removed and so have the two center stripes (however you can still clearly see remnants of the center stripes). as such namath's sb3 helmet, dressed as he wore it in sb3, is gone forever...



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[cohibasmoker]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

Last week I happened to get an email from another collector. In the email, he addressed a variety of issues one of which it seemed to him that the amount of suspension helmets worn by big name players have diminished and/or practically disappeared. My reply was then as it is now - there's a new sheriff in town.

After reading this thread, are there any doubt's?

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[Mark17]

Re: Heritage: "We're Comfortable Running The Butkus Helmet...."

Look at the screws on the facemask. The offered lid has phillips head screws, the Butkus photos all seem to show single slot screw heads.