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  1. #41
    Senior Member jobathenut's Avatar
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    I totally agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetersbatboy View Post
    You still didn't answer my question. Your say Lebron stats are better then Kobe, so that makes lebron better. But you cant compare stats when it comes to MJ???? How about Magic then, since Lebron stats are better then Magic, is he better then Magic. Stats are what they are NUMBERS..... Numbers don't win championships Heart, Determination, Work Ethic does, in those categories Lebron is behind Kobe.

  2. #42
    Senior Member jobathenut's Avatar
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    You are saying just what i have always said about the over importance in "stats" in sports.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetersbatboy View Post
    My point was two player that are separated by fractions in statistical categories, can not determine the better player. There are more to sports then numbers. The will to win ways heavier then a 1 point difference in scoring, to determine greatness.

  3. #43
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Quote Originally Posted by STLHAMMER32 View Post
    What I said was that I feel Lebron is better in several areas of the game personally and the stats back that up. If you want to compare stats with MJ and Kobe go right ahead because MJ stats are pretty damn good......Michael also appeared in 6 NBA finals and won all 6 while taking Finals MVP honors for all 6 of them....Kobe will never compare himself to MJ and he shouldn't MJ is on a level all by himself.
    I am not sure that this is fair on several levels. First, I would think that there would not be too much disagreement that the Bulls played against overall less skilled teams than say the Lakers did in the 80's when they were facing the Celtics as an example. Magic Johnson played in 9 finals and won 5. Twice lost to the Celtics in the finals. I dare say that Michael never had to play teams at that level in the finals and if Magic's Lakers did not play those great Celtic teams he might have at least 7 rings, we will never know. While it is impossible to speculate what might have happened, and Michael could only play who he played, I think that people tend to overemphasize the fact that he was 6 - 0 in those finals. While certinly that is a phenomenal accomplishment, I don't believe that the overall skill level of any of those teams was say on par with the Larry Bird Celtics or even the 08/10 Celtics that the Lakers just played and this sentiment is echoed by several very notable journalist that I recently heard discussing this element as at no time did MJ have to play teams with three future HOF players in the starting lineup. He did have to play very, very good teams with two HOF players in Stockton and Malone in 97 & 98 but at no point did he face teams with the overall depth and quality of a lineup that the Celtics threw out there night in and night out.

    The other issue here and it is pure speculation, is that the Lakers are already favored in 2010-11 to threepeat. You say that Kobe should never be compared to MJ. Again, pure speculation, but at 32 what if Kobe gets 2 - 3 more rings. If he wins two more than MJ and were to be named finals MVP in all those finals, you absolutely have to put him in that discussion.

    The beauty of this whole thing is that Michael will never play another game again (unless his HOF speech was completely serious that he would play at 50) and Kobe still has 2 - 4 good if not great years ahead of him to keep making a run. I don't think you can put Kobe in that discussion yet, however if he were to win 7 or 8 titles, you absolutely have to do that as it does not matter your feelings on Shaq/Kobe during the first three runs, anybody that can win 6 or more rings in today's grueling NBA with the schedule etc. is accomplishing something amazing given the 4 total rounds of playoffs, and the length of the season. Lets face it, in many ways, MJ was very lucky to have played on teams that remained intact in terms of health. How many times historically have we seen potentially historic teams never reach the pinnicle due to injury. MJ was fortune that his teams never faced a serious injury that derailed the season and kept them from defending their title.

    The bottom line is, that it is sheer stupidity for anyone to suggest that at no point, can any player ever be compared to MJ. At some point now or in the future, a great player will come along and do amazing things, win titles, MVP's, take his team to the next level and in sports, that is what you do compare players. Kobe is not MJ, however to suggest that nobody will ever come close to what he did is ridiculous as you cannot know the unknown. It seems like everyone gets caught up in this idea that if you even remotely compare anyone to MJ that you are somehow diminishing or trivializing what he accomplished which could not be further from the truth. While MJ is the gold standard against which others are compared, it is absolutely impossible to say that at no point can anyone ever come close to accomplishing any of those goals and records in the future.

  4. #44
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreat#8 View Post
    I am not sure that this is fair on several levels. First, I would think that there would not be too much disagreement that the Bulls played against overall less skilled teams than say the Lakers did in the 80's when they were facing the Celtics as an example. Magic Johnson played in 9 finals and won 5. Twice lost to the Celtics in the finals. I dare say that Michael never had to play teams at that level in the finals and if Magic's Lakers did not play those great Celtic teams he might have at least 7 rings, we will never know. While it is impossible to speculate what might have happened, and Michael could only play who he played, I think that people tend to overemphasize the fact that he was 6 - 0 in those finals. While certinly that is a phenomenal accomplishment, I don't believe that the overall skill level of any of those teams was say on par with the Larry Bird Celtics or even the 08/10 Celtics that the Lakers just played and this sentiment is echoed by several very notable journalist that I recently heard discussing this element as at no time did MJ have to play teams with three future HOF players in the starting lineup. He did have to play very, very good teams with two HOF players in Stockton and Malone in 97 & 98 but at no point did he face teams with the overall depth and quality of a lineup that the Celtics threw out there night in and night out.

    The other issue here and it is pure speculation, is that the Lakers are already favored in 2010-11 to threepeat. You say that Kobe should never be compared to MJ. Again, pure speculation, but at 32 what if Kobe gets 2 - 3 more rings. If he wins two more than MJ and were to be named finals MVP in all those finals, you absolutely have to put him in that discussion.

    The beauty of this whole thing is that Michael will never play another game again (unless his HOF speech was completely serious that he would play at 50) and Kobe still has 2 - 4 good if not great years ahead of him to keep making a run. I don't think you can put Kobe in that discussion yet, however if he were to win 7 or 8 titles, you absolutely have to do that as it does not matter your feelings on Shaq/Kobe during the first three runs, anybody that can win 6 or more rings in today's grueling NBA with the schedule etc. is accomplishing something amazing given the 4 total rounds of playoffs, and the length of the season. Lets face it, in many ways, MJ was very lucky to have played on teams that remained intact in terms of health. How many times historically have we seen potentially historic teams never reach the pinnicle due to injury. MJ was fortune that his teams never faced a serious injury that derailed the season and kept them from defending their title.

    The bottom line is, that it is sheer stupidity for anyone to suggest that at no point, can any player ever be compared to MJ. At some point now or in the future, a great player will come along and do amazing things, win titles, MVP's, take his team to the next level and in sports, that is what you do compare players. Kobe is not MJ, however to suggest that nobody will ever come close to what he did is ridiculous as you cannot know the unknown. It seems like everyone gets caught up in this idea that if you even remotely compare anyone to MJ that you are somehow diminishing or trivializing what he accomplished which could not be further from the truth. While MJ is the gold standard against which others are compared, it is absolutely impossible to say that at no point can anyone ever come close to accomplishing any of those goals and records in the future.
    Sure guys will have talent and stats that might surpass MJ, what I am saying is that as far as a player revolutionizing the game or setting the standard and changing the game on many levels, no one can be compared. Some goes for Babe Ruth, the impact he had on the game was something no one can compare to even though some of his numbers will be surpassed.

    Sports is more than stats as you said earlier, I never relied upon stats soley when making my arguments....its what I see and how I feel. Kobe very well be the best player in the league it just depends upon how you view it. To me Lebron is the best overall player for the way I view it....and I was pointing out the stats don't say otherwise.....

    I dont think the ring comparison is fair yet because Lebron has half of the seasons Kobe has had.....and once again its Kobe's situation that has allowed for the rings, Lakers are the best team in basketball no question....but if you put Kobe on the Cavs he would not have 5 rings right now.

  5. #45
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Quote Originally Posted by jobathenut View Post
    This is a joke question,right? I mean come on it is not even a doubt-it's kobe.And the score is 5-0.Its a team sport the last time i checked and kobe makes his team better.And lebron just makes his own personal stats better.Its not about mvp's,its about nba championship's.Kobe bryant is the best player ever!!!!!Yes i said it.......

    By your argument of Kobe 5 to Lebron's 0. Then Bill Russell's 11 to Kobe's 5 would make Bill Russell better........

  6. #46
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Quote Originally Posted by STLHAMMER32 View Post
    By your argument of Kobe 5 to Lebron's 0. Then Bill Russell's 11 to Kobe's 5 would make Bill Russell better........

    I would personally vote for Satch Sanders of the 60's Celtics with 8 Rings or maye Jim Loscutoff or Frank Ramsey of those same Celtics teams with 7 rings each. One of those three is definitely the best player of all time

    One point that I think is interesting is that someone brought up how LeBron could not possibly be expected to win as many titles as Kobe to this point as he plays in Cleveland and the Lakers at least over the past 25 - 30 years have essentially been the class of the NBA or at least in the top two or three teams. I am not sure that is accurate in the same sense that the Bulls absolutely stunk when Jordan arrived. They had been somewhat competitive in the 70's but never played for a title. By the late 70's and early 80's they were horrible. Jordan's arrival and subsequently Pippen and the addition of role players changed all that.

    LeBron has been in the league 7 years now. By all accounts Dan Gilbert their owner is willing to spend a ton of money to bring in support for LeBron. The argument that LeBron has to do it all due to the players around him seems silly to me. During the regular season when the Cavs are putting up 65 wins, nobody complains about Mo Williams, Boobie Gibson, Big Z, Big V, The Big Aristotle, etc. All of a sudden when they flame out in the playoffs, it is all those guys fault. If anything, they just don't know and understand how to play playoff basketball.

    How many Cavs fans don't wish now that the Cavs had pulled the trigger on the Amare Stoudemire trade with Phoenix earlier this season instead of settling for Jamison. True, Amare could probably not have stopped Garnett either however he certainly would not have been missing in action on the offensive end as Jamison was especially against the Celtics.

    If the Cavs have failed to surround LeBron with quality, that is somewhat their own dumb fault. If the front office is not shrewd enough to make good trades or bring in really good free agents it really has nothing to do with the city itself. True, the Lakers and Celtics have a rich tradition that Cleveland does not have however MJ proved that Chicago which was once a bottom feeder with zero championship pedigree could become world champions based on a great front office, player draft selection and development and surrounding MJ with the right players to get the job done.

    I think LeBron will get his titles however I agree, he needs to get serious on a Kobe level about winning where it is obsessive to him to the point that almost nothing else matters. Those few players the MJ's, Kobe's, Bird's, Magic's etc. that cared for winning and little else are what sets them apart from others. I just wonder if LeBron has that drive. Only time will tell.

  7. #47
    Senior Member joelsabi's Avatar
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    See answer to Question #2 and the signature at the bottom of the page.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Lebron's career regular season stats: 27.8 ppg, 7.1 boards per game, 7.0 assists per game, 1.7 steals per game, 0.9 blocks per game, 47.5 FG %, 32.9 3 point %, 74.2 FT %, 3.3 turnovers per game. 548 games, 547 starts, never less than 37.7 minutes per game in a season.

    Kobe's career regular season stats: 25.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.7 assists, 1.5 steals per game, 0.6 blocks per game, 45.5 fg%, 34.0 3 pt fg%, 83.8 ft %, 2.9 turnovers per game. 1,021 career games 873 starts, 36.6 minutes per game with 15.5 minutes per game as a career low.

    If not for Kobe's first two years when the Lakers did not start him their stats are fairly even.

  9. #49
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    Re: Who is better Kobe or Lebron?

    Lebron is a talented player no doubt, however I just can't put him over Kobe. It's hard to say who's "better" because it's kind of apples and oranges because they don't play the same position and they have different roles on their teams. People get caught up with Lebron's stats vs Kobe's championships. I think it's more complex than that.

    Kobe's stats are hurt but the fact that he didn't start until his 3rd year. Not that he couldn't have started but with Shaq there the Lakers could afford to be cautious with him. Kobe has done some amazing things scoring the ball in his career. 81 points in one game? Not even Jordan came close to that. 81 is more impressive to me that Wilt's 100 because Wilt was 5 feet from the hoop most of the time. Kobe is a perimiter player and he was hitting shots from way deep. Another time he hit 12 threes in one game including 9 in a row. That's still the record as far as I know. If Kobe was always on a team full of scrubs like he was in 2005-2007 you would see his career scoring numbers being off the charts. Even still he may retire as the all time points leader.

    Kobe by anyone's definition is a better defender that Lebron from end to end. Lebron's blocks are impressive but they don't impact the game as much as Kobe locking guys down. He's made some clutch defensive plays in the postseason too. For as physically dominant as Lebron is, he should rebound a lot better than he does. If he can't get 10 reounds a game something is wrong.

    Lebron is a great passer and he'll get you 2 or 3 more assists than Kobe in a game. However, the triangle offense is not a traditional inside-out offense. The ball has to move all to create opportunities and Phil Jackson encourages Kobe to get the "hockey assists" for than regular assists. Lebrons assists are dribble drive, 1 pass, shot. He essentially plays 1 on 5 most of the time. He creates all of the scoring opportunties himself.

    One player can not win a championship by himself however it's very impressive that Kobe was able to be a dominant and important peice to the 2000,2001, and 2002 champions then rebuild from the gutter and win back to backs again. He still might not be done. I'n my opion Lebron's image is going to take a hit if he doesn't win a championship in Cleveland and then splits to a loaded team with two or three max salary players. It will be viewed as him failing to win as the main man. Kobe is most certainly the main man in LA even with a talented guy like Pau on the team.

    I'm sorry this is so long and it could have been a lot longer. By the way Magic Johnson won 2 out of 3 championships against Boston. He did not lose to Boston twice as someone posted here earlier.

 

 

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