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  1. #11
    Senior Member mr.miracle's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    The thing with Big Mac using Andro is that anybody else who could get to GNC could do the same thing. Since it was not on the banned substance list and anybody could buy it over the counter at the time, that substance cannot be held against him anymore than a player using creatine, B12 or any other substance that can be bought at GNC.

    The irony is that many people would probably wonder about this entire era in sports anyway, but if not for Jose Canseco's book naming names and the subsequent fiasco in front of Congress where people did not want to talk about the past, others forgot how to speak English, others vehemently denied ever using steroids and were later found to have apparently lied, McGwire would probably be headed to the hall at this point.

    I find it very, very difficult to simply dismiss the fact that Big Mac hit 583 homers for his career which would punch his ticket automatically under any other circumstances. If the voters are not going to put him in which still remains to be seen, then do they also deny Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds etc. which using their standards would seem to be the case. Like him or not, until Bonds is definitively proven to have used a PED, I just don't see how he could be denied entrance with over 720 career homers and seven MVP awards. The next couple of years will prove to be very interesting as all of these issues are weighed by the voters.

    Brett

  2. #12
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    Quote Originally Posted by R. C. Walker
    McGwire was on a performance enhancing drug (or if you prefer, supplement) Androstenedione. It was in his locker for all to see. Including the ones that vote for the HOF: The Baseball Writers of America.

    Andro was not banned by baseball at that time, yet I believe voters will not vote for McGwire due to the cheating aspect towards the game.

    Andro was not banned by baseball at that time.Well when was it.If Mcgwire taking this after it was banned then yes not a first ballot HOF and not a HOF period.But infact he was taking Andro when it was not banned by BASEBALL or the GOVERMENT.So wheres the fault?He was just going about the rules that was in front of him.I can not say as to why he stop taking Andro.Maybe some one can shed some light on this

  3. #13
    Senior Member mr.miracle's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    If memory serves me correctly, the Andro was discovered in McGwires locker deep into the 1998 season when he and Sosa were pursuing Maris's single season record. Whether or not he wanted it discovered is a matter of some debate but that is another story. After it was discovered, I know there was some negative press directed toward Big Mac. At the time, Andro was perfectly legal in baseball and in the U.S. being sold over the counter at GNC. There was some dispute over its long term health affects and the negative press was directed at McGwire over the fact that this was sending a bad message to young kids and young athletes. Shortly thereafter McGwire announced he would no longer use Andro. It was not banned by baseball or the Federal Government until several years later.

    It basically boiled down to a public relations/image issue for him. That to the best of my knowledge is what happened with the Andro.

    Bret

  4. #14
    Senior Member staindsox's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    I absolutely agree about Brett's Andro point. Nobody can get on Mac's case for that because it was legal. I also believe there is enough evidence to keep him out. Remember that every man Landis banished from the game, not just the 8 Black Sox, were never proven guilty in any court of law. Mac may have been using since his earliest days in the bigs. If he were really honest and really clean, he would have had nothing to hide in front of Congress.

    What really is ironic and sad is that Canseco has been the most open and honest about the streroid issue...I personally think he is slime. He pointed a finger at Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro, Giambi, Bonds, Gonzalez, Pudge, Tejada, and Clemens. Only Clemens name has remained clean thus far...and likely because he is an untouchable. Did Canseco lie in his book??? Has anything he said been proven wrong??? If these men were innocent, why are they not persuing Canseco in court??? No law suits, hmmm. Maybe these guys don't want to go in front of a judge. Why are they not defending their name??? The public will never know the complete truth because baseball is doing its best to hide and sweep under the rug.

    I loved Mac and Sosa, but I loved Rose too. I got through the denial awhile ago. Cheating and lying cannot be tolerated. Look what it has already done to baseball in the past five years!!! Judge Landis was right. Baseball's best move would be to clean house, but that won't happen. The Hall of Fame symbolizes more than statistics. Enshrining any of these men would cheapen this honor.

  5. #15
    Senior Member b.heagy's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    Only my opinion for what its worth. Guys like Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Williams and the list goes on did not use PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs/supplements. Their game was NATURAL skill. Modern players such as Mac put Performance Enhancing drugs into ther body to bring their game to a higher level. In my eyes it doesn't matter how you look at it, they were trying to improve their game. Natural skill was not good enough and they felt the need to enhance their skill. Natural ability stands above all. The players themselves felt the need to somehow bring their game to a level that the TRUE greats had naturally. Banned or not banned at the time does not matter to me. Give guys like Ruth, Aaron, Mays, and Williams PED and how many home runs would Bonds still be chasing ? And lets not set aside the Home runs Williams and Mays would have with lost time to the service (WOW!)
    Bill Heagy
    heagysports.com
    Go Phillies !

  6. #16
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    Andro was available as an OTC supplement until early 1999 and wasn't pulled from the market (and subsequently outlawed) until after that point. Although it does appear to stimulate testosterone production to a very limited extent, the actual effects (positive and negative) are still unknown.

    During "the chase", andro was not outlawed by either MLB OR the federal government (unlike synthetic testosterone or other similar compounds). It is now, but to condemn someone in an ex post facto manner seems slightly odd to me.

    The other issue being brought up is McGwire appearing before Congress. The simple fact is that he did not belong there with other active players. Questions directed toward him regarding the current state of MLB, the MLBPA, and drug testing had no application to him at all and justified the "I'm retired" answers he was giving. And the questions of "Did you use steroids" while everyone else was being asked "do you use steroids" (past vs present) was nothing more than bringing a certain amount of tabloid exploitation to Congressional hearings.

    Did McGwire use compounds stronger than andro during his career? Possibly. However, what possible basis could there be (during hearings being held to determine the course of future policy based on the present) for asking questions regarding his career, which has ended three years prior by that point? If he says yes, what has anyone gained? Certainly the future of MLB policy wouldn't be in any way influenced by it; it looked like baiting for a scoop to me. If he says no, then has there been any gain by anyone there? Will MLB policy have been improved by him answering any of those questions at all? The answer is no.

  7. #17
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    I guess Mr.Mcgwire needs to talk to the public as to why he was taking Andro.Your right about what if Ruth,Mantle would have taking care of there health instead of living the Bar life(Read this in books).For me I would say Ted Williams could have gave Aaron a heck of a time catching him for all time HR and he is my hero hands down.Not only giving up baseball to fight for your country but in his HOF speech he did mention that the negro ball players deserve to in this HOF to not keep out cause a race.I'm a 31 old young man who wish he could go back in time and watch real baseball when most players played hard,Play through injury and cared about the fans.Sorry I'm getting of topis
    Carlie Meidna III
    carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

  8. #18
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    One last thing before I go to bed.What do you all think will happen to Mcgwires Game used value.Will it go up or will it go down.
    Also still looking for my unicorn.A real 1998 sign game used bat of Mcgwire
    Carlie Medina III
    carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

  9. #19
    Senior Member staindsox's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    Do you think McGwire got that big on Andro? Come on now. Just like Bonds. Yeah, a guy who lifts all year round and already takes every legal supplement available is suddenly going to put on 40-50 pounds of muscle in three months??? Andro also won't make your skull grow several sizes larger. Bottom line: Mac juiced...and I wish it weren't true. That doesn't make him a terrible human being, but it also doesn't buy him a spot in the Hall. Well he would have hit ___ anyway. And Tony Oliva would have done ___ if it wasn't for his knees and Conigliaro would have done ___ if he wouldn't have been beaned and Ray Fosse would have ___ if it weren't for that collision and Thurman Munson would have ___ if he hadn't have crashed in that plane..."would have" doesn't get you in Cooperstown.

  10. #20
    Senior Member staindsox's Avatar
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    Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

    As far as the 1998 McGwire gamer bats go, I doubt they will ever reach the value they once held, but will always be quite valuable and expensive. A Pete Rose game used corked bat sold at auction a year or two ago...quite valuable and significant. A '98 gamer will always be a significant piece, regardless the context in which it is viewed. This will guarantee it to remain highly sought and, as a result, an expensive addition to any collection.

 

 

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