Big Mac staying home in 2007?

[camarokids]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Did you all have a bad day ? Trying to bite off my ass here or what , some of you out there need to lighten up ! I do believe I said "usually a tell tale sign" ! I am referring to muscle bound people here ! I was merely making a comment on my observation of watching the over-paid idiot for two hours , wasn't claiming to know a lot about steroids , nor care to ! Anger , rage , moody or mad , who cares , no matter how you describe it , he did not look HAPPY ! Why don't you completely read someone's post and research it word for word before posting around here !!!!! Have you ever lifted a weight before or even been inside a gym . At the gym's I have been to and frequently worked out at over the years , I have seen quite a few muscle bound guys with scars on their backs and face . Acne scars can be from teenage years , NO SH*T , but when you see a lot of these guys with their shirts off and theres the scars , I think thats where I got the USUALLY from . I have even had friends who admitted to have taken the crap and have seen their backs . So quit trying to act all smart and trying to put someone else down , go kick your dog .

[mr.miracle]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Unless some type of significant evidence comes out one way or the other prior to the deadline at the end of the year for HOF voter ballots, it appears clear based on current writer informal poll results that Big Mac won't need to pack his bags for a trip to Cooperstown this year if at all. Reid is right, it appears fairly obvious that voters will not vote for him perhaps to make a statement who knows. My problem despite the fact that virtually everyone believes that McGwire took some type of PED's at some point in his career is that we simply have no proof that he took anything that was illegal at the time either outlawed by MLB or the Federal Government or both. As I stated in an earlier post, how can we use that type of logic on McGwire and keep him out of Cooperstown when there are certainly other players that used PED's during the past 15 plus years that we also have suspicions about? Do we keep them all out because we have our suspicions? Simply on numbers alone it sounds completely absurd that we would even consider not voting for Barry Bonds with 7 MVP's and 720 plus homers. If no conclusive proof is ever found that Bonds took PED's then how can he not be voted into the HOF simply due to someone's suspicions.

This is just a very, very slippery slope. Is anyone ultimately safe if somebody decides to name an athlete in a book or to a reporter etc. as being a possible steroid/HGH user then is that players career irreparabibly ruined due to this happening?

I agree that if anyone is found conclusively to have taken steroids or PED's of some sort, then they should not be voted into the HOF and most likely never will be. However going on suspicions alone probably will not cut it. Johnny Bench was on ESPN radio last week and was asked directly about this issue. Unlike the vast majority of current HOF members who seem pretty adament about not having any cheaters in the HOF, Bench echoed these sentiments that unless someone is conclusively proven to have used PED's of some sort, it is simply irresponsible to not vote for that person on suspicions alone.

While I too agree that players like Ripken and Gwynn who are absolutely class acts should probably have the stage by themselves next year and certainly not have a complete circus atmosphere in Cooperstown if McGwire is elected due to the steroid questions and allegations that are bound to be present, at this point, I am just not sure how you cannot vote McGwire into the HOF at some point unless more conslusive evidence comes to light.

As a previous poster said, McGwire had 49 homers his rookie year in 1987 and looked more like Dave Kingman in terms of build at that point. Unless he was juicing in 87 which is highly unlikely due to his build at that point, it is not much of a stretch to suggest that going from 49 homers as a rookie to 70 at some point in ones career is possible. McGwire never had this hugh spike in homers as he averaged 50 plus in the years leading up to 70. Meanwhile, Bonds went from low to mid 40's up to 73 in one season which seems more than a little odd. Of course what is more odd than Brady Anderson going from 16 to 50 homers in one season and never having more than 24 total in a season after that? Makes one question those couple of years as well. There are just too many unanswered questions for the past 15 plus years. I will be very, very curious what will happen as players like Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, Giambi, McGwire all come up for consideration over the next year to 6 or 7 years down the road.

Brett

[Nathan]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Did you all have a bad day ? Trying to bite off my ass here or what , some of you out there need to lighten up ! I do believe I said "usually a tell tale sign" ! I am referring to muscle bound people here ! I was merely making a comment on my observation of watching the over-paid idiot for two hours , wasn't claiming to know a lot about steroids , nor care to ! Anger , rage , moody or mad , who cares , no matter how you describe it , he did not look HAPPY ! Why don't you completely read someone's post and research it word for word before posting around here !!!!! Have you ever lifted a weight before or even been inside a gym . At the gym's I have been to and frequently worked out at over the years , I have seen quite a few muscle bound guys with scars on their backs and face . Acne scars can be from teenage years , NO SH*T , but when you see a lot of these guys with their shirts off and theres the scars , I think thats where I got the USUALLY from . I have even had friends who admitted to have taken the crap and have seen their backs . So quit trying to act all smart and trying to put someone else down , go kick your dog .

No, I didn't have a bad day. Why do you ask?

I need to lighten up...yet reading your response I can practically see steam pouring from your ears. Are you the pot or the kettle?

McGwire doesn't look happy, and that's evidence for steroid use....reading your response (which indicates anger), I therefore can infer your own excessive steroid use, right?

Not to mention the acne scars on his face , which is usually a tell tale sign of steroids use.

Silly me, I must have missed that place where you "obviously" only referred to back acne scars being a sign of steroid use. Maybe I can re-read that and find it....nope, still can't. How about now? Hang on....nope, not there. Silly me, I must be going blind.

Let's see here...I played varsity sports and worked out with Division 1 athletes in college, and my field of study is exercise science. Nope, I've never lifted weights and never been inside a gym before. Please tell me more about this mysterious place I'm completely unfamiliar with.

I'll quit trying to act all smart when I have no clue what I'm talking about. And as for my dog, he's laying at my feet resting calmly. I think you could learn a lesson from him.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Am I the only one who doesn't consider him a true HOFer WITHOUT even counting the steriods/supplements issues???

I mean, sure, he hit a lot of home runs, but what else did he do? I know '98 was exciting, but '91 was painful!

Perhaps I'm the only one who wants more than just one dimension from a HOF player?

Ken

[JimCaravello]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Ken - I agree with you 100%. I would put Santo, Oliva, Hodges, Dawson and even Mattingly in before McGwire ever even sniffed the place.........Jim

[mr.miracle]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Am I the only one who doesn't consider him a true HOFer WITHOUT even counting the steriods/supplements issues???

I mean, sure, he hit a lot of home runs, but what else did he do? I know '98 was exciting, but '91 was painful!

Perhaps I'm the only one who wants more than just one dimension from a HOF player?

Ken

I guess my only question is without looking up the individual OPS/Slugging/ONBase etc. for all members of the 500 homer club, if 500 homers has been in the past an automatic ticket punch to the HOF why would McGwire steroids aside here not go in? His HR/AB ratio is I believe one of the top 2 of all time perhaps even better at this point than Babe Ruth I would need to double check that. If McGwire would not have missed nearly 3 full seasons to injury, we are looking at a 650-700 homer guy and as it stands now he nearly hit 600. I don't agree with the reference to a supersized Dave Kingman. They are not even comparable. Kingman was a horrible fielder McGwire won a gold glove and was considered better than average at 1st. Check Kingman's slugging and on base vs. McGwire. Not even close McGwire blows him away and in addition has over 100 more homers in about the same number of at bats.

Take steroids out of it and answer this, Is 500 homers no longer an instant HOF ticket punch? I don't know the answer to that but one dimensional or not the man hit 583 career homers so based on historical voting it would seem that he would have to go in if there was no steroid issues.

Brett Herman
brettherman2131@hotmail.com

[mr.miracle]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Just as a follow up, here are a few interesting stats that without the steroid argument make a clear case for Big Mac in Cooperstown.


Career Leaders for At Bats per Home Run
Leaderboard Index: Single-Season Career Active Progressive Year-by-Year League
Click on the Player for career stats and accomplishments.
+ - Indicates Hall of Famer. Bold indicates active player
* - bats left-handed, # - switch hits, ? - unknown, else - bats right-handed
Minimum of 1000 IP, 3000 PA and 100 decisions for career and active leaderboards for rate statistics. RankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats1.Mark McGwire 10.61R2.Babe Ruth+* 11.76L3.Barry Bonds* (40)12.91L4.Jim Thome* (34)13.77L5.Manny Ramirez (33)14.08R6.Ralph Kiner+ 14.11R7.Harmon Killebrew+ 14.22R8.Sammy Sosa (36)14.29R9.Alex Rodriguez (29)14.44R10.Ken Griffey* (35)14.68L11.Albert Pujols (25)14.70R12.Ted Williams+* 14.79L13.Carlos Delgado* (33)14.98L14.Juan Gonzalez (35)15.11R Dave Kingman 15.11R16.Mickey Mantle+# 15.12B17.Richie Sexson (30)15.16R18.Jimmie Foxx+ 15.23R19.Mike Schmidt+ 15.24R20.Jose Canseco 15.27RRankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats21.Albert Belle 15.36R22.Ron Kittle 15.39R23.Frank Thomas (37)15.53R24.Mike Piazza (36)15.62R25.Hank Greenberg+ 15.69R26.Willie McCovey+* 15.73L27.Troy Glaus (28)15.98R28.Vladimir Guerrero (29)16.05R29.Jay Buhner 16.17R Cecil Fielder 16.17R Darryl Strawberry* 16.17L32.Lou Gehrig+* 16.23L33.Jim Gentile* 16.32L34.Hank Aaron+ 16.38R35.Willie Mays+ 16.49R36.Jason Giambi* (34)16.53L37.Hank Sauer 16.65R38.Eddie Mathews+* 16.67L39.Willie Stargell+* 16.69L40.Jim Edmonds* (35)16.79LRankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats41.Todd Helton* (31)16.83L42.Rob Deer 16.87R Mo Vaughn* 16.87L44.Frank Howard 16.98R45.Frank Robinson+ 17.08R46.Greg Vaughn 17.19R47.Steve Balboni 17.24R48.Bob Horner 17.33R49.Jeff Bagwell (37)17.37R50.Roy Campanella+ 17.38R51.Rocky Colavito 17.39R52.Gus Zernial 17.43R53.Gorman Thomas 17.45R54.Lance Berkman# (29)17.51B Andruw Jones (28)17.51R56.Reggie Jackson+* 17.52L57.Dick Stuart 17.53R58.David Ortiz* (29)17.56L Gary Sheffield (36)17.56R60.Duke Snider+* 17.59LRankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats61.Kevin Mitchell 17.67R62.Fred McGriff* 17.76L63.Norm Cash* 17.79L64.Dean Palmer 17.83R65.Tony Clark# (33)17.93B66.Johnny Mize+* 17.95L67.Larry Walker* 18.03L68.Dick Allen 18.04R69.Jeromy Burnitz* (36)18.05L Chipper Jones# (33)18.05B71.Ernie Banks+ 18.40R Rafael Palmeiro* (40)18.40L73.David Justice* 18.44L74.Mel Ott+* 18.50L75.Matt Williams 18.52R76.Roger Maris* 18.55L77.Todd Hundley# 18.66B78.Chris Hoiles 18.68R79.J.D. Drew* (29)18.78L80.Matt Stairs* (37)18.82LRankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats81.Eric Davis 18.87R82.Joe DiMaggio+ 18.89R83.Brian Giles* (34)18.93L84.Henry Rodriguez* 18.94L85.Gil Hodges 19.00R86.Paul Konerko (29)19.02R87.Wally Post 19.08R88.Danny Tartabull 19.13R89.Mickey Tettleton# 19.18B90.Pat Burrell (28)19.28R Ryan Klesko* (34)19.28L92.Tony Conigliaro 19.40R Al Rosen 19.40R94.Hack Wilson+ 19.51R95.Glenn Davis 19.57R96.Eric Chavez* (27)19.62L97.Derrek Lee (29)19.63R98.Joe Adcock 19.66R Bob Allison 19.66R100.John Jaha 19.68R
In addition, McGwire ranks 10th all time in Slugging % everyone currently eligible for the HOF is in the HOF that is ahead of him in this catagory. His Adjusted OPS ranks 11th tied with some guy named Jimmie Foxx . One dimensional or not, if you out homer every player in MLB history in terms of homers per at bat, I think that qualifies you for a vote into the HOF. Just some food for thought. McGwire's OBP is .394 good for 70th something all time. Obviously, he did not tear up the league as a single,double and triple hitter. Although 1300 plus walks in a little over 6000 career plate appearances is not too shabby either.

Brett Herman
brettherman2131@hotmail.com

[Nathan]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

I don't think 500 home runs is automatic at this point. The main "automatic" numbers are based off of what amounts to 20 years of above-average production. 300 wins is 20 years of 15 wins, 3000 hits is 20 years of 150 hits....but 500 home runs is 20 years at 25 home runs. I'd say for players who've played in the last 15-20 years, it'd have to be somewhere in the 600-700 home run range to be "automatic".

[mr.miracle]

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

The thing with 600 plus homers, if we look at current players and project forward, the only current players that will most likely reach 600 plus homers at this point are Ken Griffey Jr. virtually a lock, Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols assuming the latter two stay healthy and that is pretty much it. Even though we have seen a great increase in the number of players putting up incredible stats, remember McGwire had only 16 total seasons and lost almost 3 full seasons to injury. If we are looking at his stats alone we are talking about nearly 600 homers in 13 seasons of baseball. That is just a staggering number. Even to play 20 years takes incredible luck, ability, etc. I know there was a great deal of debate about three years ago when Fred McGriff was on the verge of 500 career homers and I believe finished at 491 or 493. I would say in that case he would not qualify as an instant HOF player but reaching the high 500's at this point I would think would still punch ones ticket. Players like Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc. will run out of time to get to 600 career homers. Just my two or three cents.

Brett