Big Mac staying home in 2007?

**Nathan** · 08-01-2006, 12:04 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Andro was available as an OTC supplement until early 1999 and wasn't pulled from the market (and subsequently outlawed) until after that point. Although it does appear to stimulate testosterone production to a very limited extent, the actual effects (positive and negative) are still unknown.

During "the chase", andro was not outlawed by either MLB OR the federal government (unlike synthetic testosterone or other similar compounds). It is now, but to condemn someone in an ex post facto manner seems slightly odd to me.

The other issue being brought up is McGwire appearing before Congress. The simple fact is that he did not belong there with other active players. Questions directed toward him regarding the current state of MLB, the MLBPA, and drug testing had no application to him at all and justified the "I'm retired" answers he was giving. And the questions of "Did you use steroids" while everyone else was being asked "do you use steroids" (past vs present) was nothing more than bringing a certain amount of tabloid exploitation to Congressional hearings.

Did McGwire use compounds stronger than andro during his career? Possibly. However, what possible basis could there be (during hearings being held to determine the course of future policy based on the present) for asking questions regarding his career, which has ended three years prior by that point? If he says yes, what has anyone gained? Certainly the future of MLB policy wouldn't be in any way influenced by it; it looked like baiting for a scoop to me. If he says no, then has there been any gain by anyone there? Will MLB policy have been improved by him answering any of those questions at all? The answer is no.

**cjmedina1** · 08-01-2006, 12:13 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

I guess Mr.Mcgwire needs to talk to the public as to why he was taking Andro.Your right about what if Ruth,Mantle would have taking care of there health instead of living the Bar life(Read this in books).For me I would say Ted Williams could have gave Aaron a heck of a time catching him for all time HR and he is my hero hands down.Not only giving up baseball to fight for your country but in his HOF speech he did mention that the negro ball players deserve to in this HOF to not keep out cause a race.I'm a 31 old young man who wish he could go back in time and watch real baseball when most players played hard,Play through injury and cared about the fans.Sorry I'm getting of topis

Carlie Meidna III
carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

**cjmedina1** · 08-01-2006, 12:37 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

One last thing before I go to bed.What do you all think will happen to Mcgwires Game used value.Will it go up or will it go down.
Also still looking for my unicorn.A real 1998 sign game used bat of Mcgwire

Carlie Medina III
carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

**staindsox** · 08-01-2006, 12:41 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Do you think McGwire got that big on Andro? Come on now. Just like Bonds. Yeah, a guy who lifts all year round and already takes every legal supplement available is suddenly going to put on 40-50 pounds of muscle in three months??? Andro also won't make your skull grow several sizes larger. Bottom line: Mac juiced...and I wish it weren't true. That doesn't make him a terrible human being, but it also doesn't buy him a spot in the Hall. Well he would have hit ___ anyway. And Tony Oliva would have done ___ if it wasn't for his knees and Conigliaro would have done ___ if he wouldn't have been beaned and Ray Fosse would have ___ if it weren't for that collision and Thurman Munson would have ___ if he hadn't have crashed in that plane..."would have" doesn't get you in Cooperstown.

**staindsox** · 08-01-2006, 12:46 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

As far as the 1998 McGwire gamer bats go, I doubt they will ever reach the value they once held, but will always be quite valuable and expensive. A Pete Rose game used corked bat sold at auction a year or two ago...quite valuable and significant. A '98 gamer will always be a significant piece, regardless the context in which it is viewed. This will guarantee it to remain highly sought and, as a result, an expensive addition to any collection.

**BoneRubbedBat** · 08-01-2006, 01:44 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

If we barred every player whose career was enhanced or prolonged by modern medicine, we wouldn't have much of a Hall of Fame from here on out. Is having Lasik surgery to enhance vision considered cheating? It is most certainly a performance-enhancing procedure, more so than using anabolics. Is rotator cuff surgery to prolong a career considered cheating? It would prolong a career more predictably than human growth hormone would. If it is not illegal when they do it, it should not be considered "cheating." Everyone wants to have an edge, especially in this age of multi-million dollar contracts. Where is the line drawn?

People have a hard time differentiating between an illegal substance and something that is obtained illegally. To clarify, testosterone is a legal medication. Every pharmacy carries it. It comes in various forms from topical gel (aka "the clear"), to patches, to oral troches. I write prescriptions for it almost daily for legitimate uses. Ordering it via the internet from Botswana is illegal. Human Growth Hormone is legal and has legitimate uses, but is extremely expensive (around 4K per month). Any player could be on HGH and MLB would never know it since there is no standardized way to assess extrensic HGH usage as of yet. Any player who is returning from an injury plagued season and is doing well could be under suspicion for HGH usage (Frank Thomas, Griffey Jr., etc) since it assists with healing. Illegal substances are those such as crack, meth, etc.

It should take more than speculation to keep guys out of the Hall. We have an entire generation of players that are currently under the microscope. As of right now, every player with over 500 HR's that is not already in the HOF is the subject of that speculation (except Griffey). Palmeiro doesn't count - he was using multiple performance-enhancing drugs including Viagra. Any player in this generation with exceptional numbers is automatically assumed to have cheated. How is this fair? Who's next? A-Rod? Pujols?

I am not that naive to think that it is not occuring though. I do think there are many players out there that are using various substances for non-therapeutic conditions, but I will continue to base my final opinions on fact rather than speculation.

Mac didn't juice, Sosa didn't juice, and OJ didn't do it.

**mr.miracle** · 08-01-2006, 07:45 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Marcus makes an excellent point. Even though Palmeiro got caught and there are questions surrounding several other big time HOF calibre players, the facts remain that 1. these other players have never been caught doing anything illegal which makes it very difficult to play the assumption game and sanction anyone. 2. We will never, ever know the full scope of just how far reaching the steroids/HGH scandal has gone.

Whatever the reliability of Canseco's claims are, the fact that he is saying that 70-80% of players in the 90's were using steroids or some type of PED leads us to believe that many, many players were on something. As Marcus said, how do you make that determination of what is cheating and what is not and how do you sanction a player because you think he was cheating, but have no definitive proof? How many other players never attained superstar status yet spent much of their careers using some type of PED? Performance enhancing drugs will not make an average player a superstar, they will make a superstar even better. Many average players probably used something which allowed them to stay in the league a few more years. We simply will never know the depth and extent to which this issue goes.

Therefore, the question is, do we disregard the past 20 years in MLB and state that everyone could be guilty of cheating so nobody goes into the HOF? That is simply ridiculous, probably as ridiculous as the speculation that this person or that person cheated so based on our suspicions players A, B, and C should not go into the Hall. It all goes back to one issue, MLB dropped the ball 15 plus years ago when there were suspicions that players were on something. Now everyone wants to point fingers and lock people out of the HOF. We cheered for 15 years as these herculean numbers were put on the boards and now we want to scream cheater at everyone and punish them for attaining levels that were unrealistic to begin with. We turned a blind eye because it was fun to watch. Now we want someone to hang for this. It all seems a bit odd to me. I am in no way trying to justify cheating or using PED's, just some food for thought.

Brett Herman

**JimCaravello** · 08-01-2006, 08:54 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

I love Sullivan's comment - "he's a super sized Dave Kingman".....one of the best quotes I have heard in a long time - he just doesn't belong in the HOF......as I have said in the past, Roger Maris still holds the single season HR mark ( in my humble opinion..... ).......Jim

**staindsox** · 08-01-2006, 09:10 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

We also need to understand the difference in why a player is using HGH or steroids. Mickey Mantle is the perfect example. The number of issues he had with his knees, do doctor would have surely prescribed them for rehabilitation purposes. Barry Bonds has Greg Anderson buying the stuff off of aids patients in the Bay Area. Nobody can see the difference here? LEGALLY acquiring medication is the key. Nobody should say a word against McGwire because of Andro, it was LEGAL at the time. Lasik is also LEGAL. Buying HGH from aids patients in the parking lot of Gold's Gym is NOT LEGAL...there is your difference.

Since 1869 to 1994, how many men hit 50 homeruns in a major league season? How many have done it since? Toss every juicer for life. Baseball did drop the ball, but sweeping it under the rug solves nothing. This will not erase all of the Hall of Famers like so many seem to be worried about. Only 1% of major leaguers become enshrined, only 1%!!!. There have been years where nobody has been enducted. There are plenty of guys that did it clean where their number DID diminish with age, like every other Hall of Famer. Henderson, Ripken, Gwynn, or how about Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson? There will always be Hall of Famers. We don't need McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, or Bonds in the Hall of Fame. We have plenty of players who did it clean.

**staindsox** · 08-01-2006, 09:13 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Jim,

All I have to say is Amen, Amen. I could not agree more. I too still say Maris holds the single season record. His hair fell out because of stress, not illegally obtained drugs.

**mr.miracle** · 08-01-2006, 09:29 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

One issue I find very interesting that was pointed out in an earlier post, is the fact that once Canseco's book hit the shelves there was a great deal of speculation that everyone named in the book would sue Canseco. In fact several players Palmeiro included and I believe McGwire at one point indicated that they would do just that. Nobody ever sued Canseco or anyone else for that matter. By comparrison, Lance Armstrong has been named by various French writers, newspapers etc. and has subsequently sued everyone and won lawsuits on three occasions against those making these doping allegations against him. Lance has vehemently denied and repeated fought and won against those falsely accusing him of something never, ever proven. If any or all of these players named by Canseco or various other sources are not guilty, why would they not file a lawsuit? Heck, it is the American way to file lawsuits against everyone you can for anything you can. It does my make me wonder just what is hiding in the closet that they don't want to come out. If and when any of those cases ever made it to court, who knows just what would hit the fan.

I cannot wait for MLB's investigation finding to come out whenever that happens. I am sure we will find so much conclusive evidence that will provide closure to this entire episode.

Yeah, that's it.

Brett

**mr.miracle** · 08-01-2006, 09:30 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Good thing we did not have Rogaine back then or Maris might have found himself suspended.

**Nathan** · 08-01-2006, 11:11 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

mr.miracle,

Even funnier when you consider that Jose Theodore of the Montreal Canadiens was banned from the 2006 Olympics after testing positive for the active ingredient in Propecia, which is classified as a performance enhancer.

BRB,

You bring up a good point. Steroids are legal only with a prescription; for anyone without one it's classified in the same grouping as heroin and cocaine.

Also, the dosage is vastly different between an anabolic compound and pharmaceutical testosterone issued to a hypogonadal man. The pharmaceutical stuff is something like 15 mg/day, while the stuff given out in a brown bag behind World Gym is one dose usually between 100-1000 mg right there.

**staindsox** · 08-01-2006, 11:34 AM

Re: Big Mac staying home in 2007?

Nathan,

Awesome points...and I didn't realize Jose Theodore was banned for that.