Manny jersey - Paragon

**nationals2k9** · 02-23-2011, 01:00 PM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Originally posted by nationals2k9

http://www.paragonauctionsite.com/Lo...=50&category=8

What do you all think about this being the legitimate article? I have decided not to bid since I'll plain and simple probably never know if it was worn by Manny during his rookie season. I've been burned far too many times. Can't really see many signs of use even if it was issued by the team. I have a decent amount of pics where everything seems to line up, but all of the in-game pics are spring training shots, pre-patch, and show a very dirty jersey. I just don't know so I'm staying away. Anyone else??

Let me clarify, there are "game" photos from baseball cards with the memorial patch in view. There's also a photo of Albert Belle with the same style jersey + patch. But unless there's a Manny photo + patch that's not on a baseball card and has at least one photomatched thing to make it the exact shirt, I just can't do it.

Attached Files

**allstarsplus** · 02-23-2011, 01:19 PM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Michael - Why don't you call Keith Vari and talk to him about the jersey as I am sure this would be a grail item for any Manny collector.

I see the nameplate on the back has been restored with no explanation as to why.

Did the Indians ever sell jersey blanks back in those days and was Manny a size 44 in 1993?

**nationals2k9** · 02-23-2011, 02:17 PM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

I talked with Keith a couple weeks ago. Also talked with John Taube who owned the shirt at one time. Really, I have no concrete doubts about it other than 1993 is just a really long time ago and it's hard to ever be 100% - especially when comparing to the HR jersey I just added to my collection. Of the handful of Indians shirts I found, most were more like 46 to 50 though none were this old. Even today, the one I got is a 56 and the BP CWS jersey Ballpark Heroes has is a 46. I'm very impatient with jerseys sometimes.

Really my motive for putting this up here is in case another Manny collector somehow missed it.... and so we can of course all discuss it.

**sox83cubs84** · 02-23-2011, 09:25 PM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Personally, I like the jersey...the tags are right and show laundry wear, and a size 44 from that early on wouldn't surprise me.

As far as current sizing, I'm researching the White Sox BP that BPH has. I have no doubt that it's a team piece (it was obtained at SoxFest), but I simply cannot believe that a guy whose game jerseys are in the 52-56 range in the last few years would wear a 46 in BP. One size down I could see, but not this much of a gap.

Dave Miedema

**allstarsplus** · 02-24-2011, 07:15 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Steve Mears asked me to add his comments to the thread on the sleeve patch:

When observing the baseball patch with the numbers honoring the two deceased players, the relationship of the black baseball stitching on the right of the baseball, and the Russell "R" are way off. Looking North and South, the stitching on the baseball in the photos of Manny wearing the jersey as it ends at the bottom of the baseball, BREACHES THE TOP (goes lower than the top) of the "R".

This jersey, when looking at the same spatial relationship, shows the "R" lower than where the black baseball stitching ends on the lower right side of the ball.

In addition to that, the jersey for sale also shows the same black stitching at the top and bottom of the baseball appearing to go over the edge just a bit on the dark blue vertical piping on the sleeve. In the photos of Manny, the opposite condition can be observed. The black stitching appears to meet the edge of the baseball (top and bottom, right side) just INSIDE (or worse case scenario, EVEN with) the dark blue piping (if you were to connect the piping in a straight line where it is covered by the baseball patch).

Add to that the fact the "RAMIREZ" nameplate has been "restored" with no mention why it was restored. Was it because it was removed at one point?

**kellsox** · 02-24-2011, 07:29 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

So banned members can now participate on the forum through moderators???

**allstarsplus** · 02-24-2011, 07:44 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Originally posted by kellsox

So banned members can now participate on the forum through moderators???

If someone posts for any person they are responsible for the posting as if it were there own but certainly if one of the other moderators or Chris find this against one of the Rules they can delete it.

The background was a potential bidder asked Steve to take a look at the Manny jersey on auction and Steve researched it for him and had some initial comments.

Steve forwarded it to a few people and one of them forwarded it to me as they knew there was a thread on here, and I thought I would contact Steve Mears to further discuss. He then wrote this up. I found it pertinent but also don't think it is right to put the comments in as my own research.

**allstarsplus** · 02-24-2011, 08:45 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

This is a closeup of the new patch:

**dcgreg25** · 02-24-2011, 09:26 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Being a big Indians collector and having searched for a good Ramirez Indians jersey for years, I have also looked into this jersey. While my understanding is that it sources from the team originally, I agree with Steve's assesment that this is not the jersey pictured in the card. The patch location is just not correct and my understanding is that the patch does not show evidence of restoration. Ramirez only played in 22 games that year making it unlikely that this was worn, in my opinion.

It appears the Indians repurposed the 1993 jerseys for Spring Training in 1994 as they changed the jersey design for the opening of Jacobs Field. Below is an image of Ramirez from ST in 1994 wearing a 1993 jersey. Notice the Olin/Crews patch is not present. It would have made more sense if the Olin/Crews patch was restored given the use in ST but the nameplate restoration remains a mystery. I am a big Indians collector and am still researching the jersey but as of now I am inclined to stay away.

**allstarsplus** · 02-24-2011, 10:07 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Originally posted by dcgreg25

Being a big Indians collector and having searched for a good Ramirez Indians jersey for years, I have also looked into this jersey. While my understanding is that it sources from the team originally, I agree with Steve's assesment that this is not the jersey pictured in the card. The patch location is just not correct and my understanding is that the patch does not show evidence of restoration. Ramirez only played in 22 games that year making it unlikely that this was worn, in my opinion.

It appears the Indians repurposed the 1993 jerseys for Spring Training in 1994 as they changed the jersey design for the opening of Jacobs Field. Below is an image of Ramirez from ST in 1994 wearing a 1993 jersey. Notice the Olin/Crews patch is not present. It would have made more sense if the Olin/Crews patch was restored given the use in ST but the nameplate restoration remains a mystery. I am a big Indians collector and am still researching the jersey but as of now I am inclined to stay away.

Keith Vari who is with Paragon Auctions called me back on the jersey and he will inspect the sleeve patch tomorrow. He said the #24 is original and shows no sign of any changes.

Certainly, the team could have taken many jerseys of non-veterans who weren't guaranteed to be at Spring Training and removed the patch and maybe even the nameplate which is a viable explanation.

Howard Wolf emailed me that Wochnick at Sports Warehouse also had some 1993 Indians in similar condition and they had new Memorial sleeve patches added back and restoration done by Lon.

Obviously we don't know if this was one of them.

**perlman9** · 02-26-2011, 07:11 AM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

thought I would post this here for those interested in Manny jerseys. Not mine, but thought someone may want to take a stab at it

craigslist | Page Not Found

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/clt/2234148651.html

**platinum1** · 02-26-2011, 06:16 PM

Re: Manny jersey - Paragon

Originally posted by perlman9

thought I would post this here for those interested in Manny jerseys. Not mine, but thought someone may want to take a stab at it
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/clt/2234148651.html

I'm not sure if the jersey is good or not but thats the same seller that claims that all the jerseys he sells with no set # are game used.
Here is a link

Game Used Forums

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=41585

Manny jersey - Paragon

Manny jersey - Paragon

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