Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

[dplettn]

Much has been written here about JO Sports. Certainly there are many valid opinions. It is not my place to judge their pricing strategies. However, I was alarmed when I was propositioned by JO Sports to buy a Chad Ochocinco Cincinnati Bengals helmet (represented as game used), said to be “easily photomatched” to particular dates.


The alarm in my head went off in major ways not only because the product JO offered to sell me duplicates what I already own, but because I have iron-clad written provenance (written documentation from either the player or team) for use of my 2010 game used Chad Ochocinco helmet, which corresponds to the game photos JO sent. My item also shows significant use inside the helmet which by my eyes is severely lacking in the products JO was marketing as the subject of its “photo matching”.
I will today in thisp post begin a timeline, and post photographs provided by JO of the helmet they attempted to sell me as game used. I have a longer timeline which still requires grammar editing before I post.



That timeline has already been shared with the owner of JO Sports who disputed no facts as to how his company marketed the item. In fairness to JO, upon learning that I was going to reveal this situation, JO claims they have stopped calling the item “photomatched”. In my personal view the timeline and specific marketing choices reveal much more than just a simple error though. In our last conversation today, JO made clear they continue to offer the item as Game Used until its proven not to be. I was asked by the owner how I know the helmet wasn’t “used for a quarter”?

***Below begins a timeline***


January 5th, 2011:
I purchase 2010 Bengal Game Used Helmet of “Chad Ochocinco” and receive Iron Clad Written Provenance from either the Bengals or Ochocinco (which of the two I’ll keep to myself). The same signers of the documentation is/are the party that sold the item directly to me. Helmet, internal pads, facemask, chinstrap, etc all displays significant use (internal and external). The use is absolutely unmistakable. Internal to the helmet is a March 2010 Recertification sticker in addition to the original Schutt sticker. I find further comfort in comparing to photos (including some non-published personal use photos) throughout the season, which aside from a photo of a Ridell helmet (no player in it) on the sideline during the Colts game appear to match my helmet, even as the interchangeable facemask is changed for some games.


March 2nd, 2011 12:40 PM EST:
I receive an e-mail from JO Sports which introduces/markets: … our Bengals gear for the 2010 NFL Season… We just got in Helmets and Pants for every player as well as jerseys. All are game used and have great wear... I will give you the list of helmets that we just received, if your interested in any items I can send you pic’s and pricing. {spelling error reproduced, my apologies}


March 2nd, 2011 12:44 PM EST:
Curious, I reply “I'd like to see the list!”


March 2nd, 2011 12:56 PM EST:
I receive the helmet list, which includes “Chad Ochocinco”, priced at $5. e-mail further states “Shoot me out some names you would like to look at and I’ll send you some photos….”


March 2nd, 2011 12:58 PM EST:
Totally perplexed how an organization like JO could be selling something seeming to conflict with my iron clad provenance I reply: “Can I see pics (front, back, inside) of the 2 Ochocinco helmets, please?”

March 2nd, 2011 1:11 PM EST:
I receive 6 photos in a JO e-mail, all external photographs and none showing use of any significance. E-mail text says:
“Here’s both styles of helmets… the second helmet (Schutt, same “style” as mine) is really sweet! It is easily photo matched and worn in a couple games. It’s the newest style of Schutt helmet and he was the first one to wear it… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) If you would like to move forward on it let me know and we can discuss pricing and details…. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) All helmets come with Certificates of Authenticity from us stating that the all items were indeed obtained directly from the Cincinnati Bengals…”


The second helmet photographed (Ridell) is clearly the helmet that was photographed (absent Chad) on the sideline during the Colts game. It was very reassuring to my hope that he never actually used a different helmet than mine when I saw the lack of use.


The Schutt helmet JO Photographed had the alternate (changeable) facemask variation Chad used this year attached to it, which caused me to want to see the inside of the helmet so that I could be open-minded to whether both helmets had been used with the facemasks currently attached to them, or whether one primary helmet had been used.




**I've attached to this post pictures provided by JO of the helmet they were trying to sell me (as game used)**


The timeline will be continued and more pictures submitted as I have time to continue. This post only tells the story through March 2nd at 1:11 PM EST

[dplettn]

Upon seeing the photos of what JO was selling as Game Used, I certainly noticed that the style of the Schutt helmet (including inner pads) matched my own (which I’d later learn other Bengals helmets they were selling did not), but even aside from the knowledge of what the use in and outside my Chad 2010 Game Used helmet looked like, I assumed anybody would look at that helmet and say, why isn’t it scratched up, why aren’t there sweat stains, etc.


I didn’t want to represent myself as an interested customer, so I didn’t say that I was. I also didn’t want to alert any unknown persons to what I owned, which is why I never posted my purchase on GUU initially. I figured the best thing was to try and ask questions that would help any upstanding person realize that what they had might need to be reconsidered. I figured the first thing to ask was about the previously referenced photo-match because then we could look at the purported photo-match together and they would experience an epiphany. I was also curious whether the Ridell helmet ever made it into a game at all.

March 2, At 1:28 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: ”What games were u able to photomatch to each?“

March 2nd, 2011 1:54 EST
JO e-mail response states:



“He wore the this schutt helmet for sure on 9/2/10, 9/26/10 & 11/21/10… These are just three easy pulls I found there might be one or two more games. I sent over pic’s one from each game. We have had a lot of hits on this helmet and it probably won’t be here very long. If your truly interested my suggestion is to move on it in a timely fashion. Let me know if you would like to move forward or have any other questions on it…”


From the above quote of the JO e-mail, please note that yes, both words "the" (which I assumed to refer to Schutt variety), and "this" (which I assumed to refer to the helmet in JOs possession) are present in the JO e-mail. Also, the "..." are actually in the text of the e-mail. I have not replaced or omitted any text from this e-mail.

[dplettn]

To say I was shocked by JO continuing to pitch the helmet as game used and photo-matched (without any actual photo-match), much less making specific claims of dated photomatches is an understatement. I began to wonder how quickly they would realize that their helmet wasn’t showing much use and potentially seek to change that if they were already representing having dated photo-matches for the helmet in their possession… so my focus turned to getting accurate, clear photos of the inside of the JO helmet.


March 2, At 2:23 PM EST
From my mobile phone I wrote back: “Pics inside, front, back of each Chad helmet, please.”


March 2nd, 2011 2:32 and 2:34 EST
JO e-mail sprovides 5 more photographs of their Schutt helmet and 3 more photos of the Ridell. Only 1 is an internal photo (of the Schutt) and appears to show 2 random hair fragments on top of a forehead pad appearing absent the sweat stains on my own. The pads, including cloth forehead pad that seemingly should be sweat stained all appear “new”, as does the chinstrap.


March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:


All 3 lines of My response:


“I'm most interested to see more pics (in higher resolution) of the inside of both helmets, but primarily of the Schutt.”

“The wear by the forehead... the stickers, etc.”

“ASAP, please.”


March 2nd, 2011 3:42 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Give me a little bit. The Helmet just went to espn radio station to be talked about here on our local espn radio show. I might be broadcast nation wide so tune in to you local espn radio if you want to hear them talk about it. It will be airing in 20-30 min. As soon as it returns you will have photos. I’m going to lunch and in an hour I will have photos of the inside stickers for you. It is not his practice helmet it has a conditioning sticker which was placed on the inside and the date on it is Aug. 10th …. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) It’s yours if we can get it done today. We are expecting more hits as to the radio show and I want to be able to tell people it is sold and there too late.”


March 2nd, 2011 3:26 EST:
Knowing what I owned and having the opinions of the use on the JO helmet which I had, some people guess what I was thinking of the marketing tactics I was being exposed to. I truly was curious at this point how aggressively JO was going to tell the collecting marketplace believe that they were the bearer of something Chad had spent his 2010 playing NFL games in.


My entire response: “I don't know where/how to get ESPN radio, but if you have a link, transcript, or recording of what's said, I'd love to hear/read it.”


My question was never answered. The only media that ever showed up was video apparently taken by JO which later showed up hosted at cites like utube, which I found via google alerts based on marketing metatags, etc. That video avoided significantly showing the inside of Chad’s helmet.


March 2nd, 2011 5:19 EST:
JO e-mail states: “Hear are some high res. photo’s of the Ochocinco schutt helmet…” Attached are four photos, each less than 200 KB. One shows facemask use, One shows an unblemished 2010 Season Warranty sticker internal to the helmet, one shows a singular scuff on one of the external black helmet stripes, and the last shows a peculiar close-up of the two small hair blemishes on the forehead pad, absent any sweat stains such as what is present on mine.


The pics JO supplied are attached, unaltered. The pics are not scaled down from the sizes to which JO presented "high res. photo's" to me.

[dplettn]

I felt a bit relieved to know that if JO (or anyone who JO sold the helmet to) altered it from that state, I would have documentation of what the JO helmet once looked like (post purported “use”). However, I was astonished that JO Sports would still be presenting the helmet to me (and presumably others) as “game used” and that they had been claiming to have photo-matched it (an assertion which they would eventually walk away from)


March 2nd, 2011 7:37 EST:
My response was two lines:


“Is it just me, are you not seeing any (use) in the inner part of the Ochocinco Schutt helmet either?”

“To be clear, are you saying that this helmet was used during games, and if so on the dates you said that you photomatched?”

March 2nd, 2011 7:51 EST:
JO e-mail tries to claim the inside is “greasy” and that its “just hard to tell by photo”, and that it “has some hair”. On the subject photo matching the e-mail states “As to the photo matching it is from one of 5 games. If we move forward on the helmet I will pull pictures and photo match the hit marks and place the photo on photo paper for you. He wore this style of helmet in 5 games I went and did some research. Photo matching is 110% authenticity and you will also have an COA with hologram from us, J.O. Sports Co. Which I’m pretty sure you’ve heard about our great outstanding reputation. This definitely a Chad Ochocinco Gamer…. What are your thoughts on moving forward??? And doing a form of payment today…”

March 2nd, 2011 8:17 EST:
Two exact paragraph’s of my response:


“From the pictures on the inside, it appears on the forehead area there is absolutely no use... I've asked for high resolution pictures, but the only thing you are sharing with me is very tiny image files and at that resolution it would appear nobody ever sweated in the helmet, not even once... much less Chad...”

“There is a big difference between a photo match and a style match. What photo match have you shown me?”


March 2nd, 2011 8:28 EST:
JO e-mail states “Ok well I’ll have to show you tomorrow…. I’ll take the pads out and shoot them outside the helmet……. (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) My photo guy has left for the day and will be in in the a.m… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I’m going to release the helmet to my other sales man tomorrow so they can have an opportunity to sell it as well. It is policy here… (“…” is in the body of the e-mail) I will email you photos first thing in the morning.. (“..” is in the body of the e-mail) ”


March 3rd, 2011 12:59 EST:
After trying to phone, anxiously wanting to see whether JO was actually going to continue trying to market what they had in their possession as game used after I’d alerted them to the problems (without telling them what I own), I sent JO an e-mail follow up reminding them that I’d still like to see high resolution pictures (and for them to notice the lack of use) and again trying to get him to realize that what he was calling a photomatch was really just a stylematch.

March 3rd, 2011 1:23 EST:
JO e-mail states “I’m still on the phone with a customer. I can photo match the hit marks that are on the helmet. Hard to see with photos but easy to see in person… As too photos of the inside of the helmet, I’ve got my photographer taking photos today and it is on his list… As soon as he takes them I will send them over bud..”


There would be no follow up with me until March 8th... but it may be interesting to look at videos of Bengal's helmets that were uploaded on the internet in the interim. I'm curious if any other forum members were in contact with JO about the helmet(s) in the interim.


I'll get back to the timeline of my own observations and experiences as soon as I am able.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

[mad87man]

I too am trying to figure it out. Are you saying they aren't game used helmetS? I know JO sells nothing but game used stuff. I have purchased more then enough stuff to know. I have bought 3 helmets from them and they all look pretty new on the inside but the outside is beat to hell(from games). I have a Brad Smith Jets helmet which is photomatched to the Chicago bears game and has no sweat stains/marks on the padding(that i have noticed, i'll have to take a look). I never questioned JO sports or would have a reason too.They get the stuff from the team, then from there sells it.

[dplettn]

Hello Dan,

Thank you for your posts. This is quite interesting. A couple of quick questons:

1) Just to make sure I am reading your posts correctly, are you stating the helmet the Bengals gave to JO Sports is not game used despite the fact the Bengals LOA claims it to be game used? I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you are stating.

2) Can you please post pictures of your helmet as well as the source from which you received the helmet? Obviously, based on your claims, your helmet was acquired through a legitimate source and it would help us understand how there may (or may not) have been confusion on the part of the Bengals.

I am familiar with team deals as I have been involved in them in the past and it would seem odd to me that the Bengals would sell a legitimate item to an individual and then provide a non-game used item to JO Sports who is contracted to get the game used items from the Bengals.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

Dear Chris

I applaud you for ensuring the integrity of the Board. I have no interest to state anything about what JO has. The photographs and JO can make whatever statements they desire to make about what JO has.

I have not decided yet whether I am or am not comfortable posting provenance and/or photographs of my helmet on the forum for everyone in the world to see. I am 100% comfortable e-mailing them to you with your assurance that you will view them only yourself, and not share them elsewhere unless legally demanded to do so. Although I may sound silly, I personally choose to be private with whom I share photographs of my possessions for various reasons.

You can e-mail me at plettner@fuse.net (which is the e-mail I display publically) or you can e-mail me at my registered e-mail which I prefer to keep private. Again, I understand the importance of a moderator and I have no problem with you verifying anything I say I own... I do own a Chad Ochocinco 2010 Game Used helmet with provenance either from the team, or the player. I do not owe anything to JO Sports to de-authenticate their item and I have no interest to de-authenticating it.

The legitimacy of JO's authentication process is their business, not mine. I merely want to share a timeline, and facts that were previously provided for potential dispute to the owner of JO Sports.

No one disputes that JO does business with the Bengals, JO and the Bengals are two entirely different parties. I do not owe anything to JO (or necessarily to the team referenced) to help anyone assess their various business relationships.

I do own you the right to anything you want to see privately to make sure that I'm not claiming to own something I don't really own. In theory is is possible that Chad used more than one helmet (for varying amounts of time) in at least one games... sure.... Its totally possible that what JO pitched me was worn in a game.

Did JO have the photomatches they claimed to have when they pitched me the helmet though? No.

Should the photos of the helmet JO is marketing (including video taken to the taste of JO marketing staff and uploaded by JO elsewhere) be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Should the timeline of JO marketing the helmet and how they propositioned me be available for viewing and discussion by GUU collectors? That's your call, obviously.

Respectfully Yours,
Dan

[sellingmygamers]

You are aware that many "blacks" wear the do-rags over there heads. With that you wouldn't get much sweat stains etc. on the inside of the helmets.
Why are you so scared to post info about your helmet? I could care less about Jo Sports but it appears your either schizophrenic or just trying to bash Jo sports?

[tspane2k]

I have also done much business with JO Sports and all items I have bought are easily photomatched. In my opinion there stuff is the best. But like I say that's just my opinion.

[commando]

dplettn,

Look, I'm not taking sides, but since you posted here....

It would be easy for you to post photos of your helmet, along with any photo matches and any other provenance you have. The fact that JO gets their items directly from many teams is beyond dispute, so I'd love to see this get resolved with a minimum amount of tap-dancing around the issue. You're a well-written person and obviously very meticulous with your research, so let's see it!

We all appreciate pics of a good NFL gamer helmet!