Players of today vs. yesterday...

[flota89]

I have given this question some thought from time to time and thought I would pass it along to all of you and see what everyone thinks.

How do you think a dominant player from pre-integration would have performed in an age with African American and Hispanic players?

And a somewhat similar question: Is Babe Ruth the greatest player of all time?

I ask this because players in the 20s, 30s and 40s undoubtedly faced less talent therefore may not have actually been near as talented as post integration stars like Willie Mays, Stan Musial, or Ted Williams. Would the likes of Ruth and Lehrig have hit as many home runs and had as high an average against dominant African American and Hispanis players like Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, and Ferguson Jenkins? Would Ruth have batted nearly as high with great defenses like Pudge Rodriguez, Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays or Ken Griffey Jr? I say no.

[cjclong]

I think its an impossible question to anwer. How would a white player from the 1920's or 30's play against other white players today? How would Babe Ruth have hit todays pitching whether black, white, hispanic or oriental. Because we have a progression of talent and records fall over the years we tend to think todays athletes are better than in years past. I think it is less true in baseball than football. Obviously there would have been excellent black or hispanic athletes in the 20's and 30's who weren't playing. But there is no reason to think a great player like Ruth would not have done well against them as they would have done well against him. The white Mickey Mantle, near the end of his career hit a home run off Bob Gibson in game 7 of the '64 WS. Gibson also beat the Yankees 7-5. I guess what I am saying is that Ruth, Gehrig, etc would have been star players when they played. Unfortunately black and hispanic weren't given the chance to be stars also. There would have been black pitchers that would have gotten Ruth out and black pitchers he would have hit. And I'm not sure that you can equate the black and hispanic althletes of the 20's and 30's with the black and hispanic althletes of today. Ruth would not have been playing against Pudge or Griffey, but black or hispanic players with the skills of players from 70 or 80 years ago just as Ruth had the skills of a player 80 years ago. I guess the way I look at it is not the talented white players would have been pulled down but that the black and hispanic players weren't allowed to star. When Jackie Robinson came into baseball it didn't diminish any of the white stars but simply allowed him to become a star as well.

[MSpecht]

Here is one of the best ten dollar reads you'll find that approaches this subject. The earlier 1992 edition would also be a good companion piece. Note--- the Kindle eBook edition also came out last year.

http://www.amazon.com/Bill-James-His...7484241&sr=8-1

Mike jackitout7@aol.com

[staindsox]

players in the 20s, 30s and 40s undoubtedly faced less talent.

INCREDIBLY INACCURATE AND INCORRECT. Today, there are professional athletes in football, basketball, hockey, soccer, golf, skiing/boarding, running, etc etc etc. Today's best athletes are spread out over dozens of sports. Other than a handful that went into boxing, EVERYONE played baseball in the 1920s.

Also, there aren't many American-born blacks in baseball today. They are all going into basketball and football. If anything, today's crop of MLBers is watered down.

Try this argument on the Net54 board.

[legaleagle92481]

Arguments against older players not pertaining to race:

1. They did not have the travel. Baseball was in the north east and northern midwest. No long plane flights or any plane flights.

2. They faced the same players again and again. Today Pujols has five as faces three different pitchers in a game, most every game. Then it was not uncommon to face the same starting pitcher multiple times a series and the guys pitched eight innings and complete games like there was no tommorrow. Today you have five man rotations, middle relievers, lefty specialists, seventh inning guys, eighth inning guys and closers and many times more teams. And there was so few times they played alot more games against each other. This lets you learn tendencies. When a hitter and pitcher are unfamiliar with each other the pitcher has a huge edge.

[kellsox]

1. They did not have the travel. Baseball was in the north east and northern midwest. No long plane flights or any plane flights.


I'd take todays long charter plane flights where everything is 1st class any day over a long trade ride.

K

[staindsox]

Arguments against older players not pertaining to race:

1. They did not have the travel. Baseball was in the north east and northern midwest. No long plane flights or any plane flights.

2. They faced the same players again and again. Today Pujols has five as faces three different pitchers in a game, most every game. Then it was not uncommon to face the same starting pitcher multiple times a series and the guys pitched eight innings and complete games like there was no tommorrow. Today you have five man rotations, middle relievers, lefty specialists, seventh inning guys, eighth inning guys and closers and many times more teams. And there was so few times they played alot more games against each other. This lets you learn tendencies. When a hitter and pitcher are unfamiliar with each other the pitcher has a huge edge.

1. Train travel took a hell of a lot longer than today's plane travel does. It's a lot less comfortable and they also didn't necessarily even have A/C. Today's guys have it a hell of a lot easier when it comes to travel.

2. The pitching was far better in 1920 or 1930. 16 teams total (with a 4 man rotation). That means each team faces the very best 32 pitchers each league has to offer. Having to face Walter Johnson or Lefty Grove several more times a year doesn't seem like an advantage to me. Also, the old timers would have made a meal out of 3-5 starters and every single middler reliever. Today's baseball is watered down.

[flota89]

Good arguments from both sides of this issue.

I still would side with players of today face a much harder situation.

Either way, try to keep the posts not so harsh. Staindsox came off a little harsh to me.

Let's hear everyone's opinions.

[legaleagle92481]

Travel involves alot more than just sitting on a plane or a train. I am talking the effects that being in a time zone different than one is accustomed to has on one's body. Say your a Met. Your used to eastern standard time. You hop a plane to play the Dodgers in the Pacific Time Zone, which is three hours behind what your used to. A game that starts at 7 o'clock it is like it is starting at 10 o'clock. The human body takes a few days to adjust to such a drastic time change. Look at in the NFL in one of their playoff years, the Cardinals lost all their east coast games. I don't think it was a coincidence. Plus there are drastic weather differences between cities particularly in the early part of the season. Also today's players play many more games. They play eight extra games per year and the playoffs are much longer. In the old days two teams made playoffs had a World Series. Today its division series, lcs then finally world series it can add another 15 plus games. As far as better pitchers, the more times you see a pitcher the better chance you have of hitting him.

[xpress34]

Let's put a nail in this coffin...

The old player's had it much harder... when's the last time a Major Leaguer had to WORK in the off season to get by?

Today's players have tons more money, tons more free time, better medicine and fitness training and most injuries aren't automatic career enders due to the advances in modern medicine and surgeries.

Old player's played through injuries - today's guys go on the DL for a hang nail.

I only need one example - Mickey Mantle. Wrapped his knees everyday so he could play... if he hadn't stepped in that drain cover, who knows how much higher his numbers could have been.

As far as the travel, how many of you have ever traveled anywhere by train? And I'm not talking the L in Chicago or the NYC subway. I'm talking at minimum a 2-3 hour train ride. I've done it a few times here in Colorado on the Ski Train to Winter Park and it's just under 2 hours each way and it wears you out.

Now consider standing around at the train station waiting on the train - people get off, people get on, luggage exchange, etc... then taking a 5 hour or so train ride to another town.

Not to mention hotel accommodations (better beds today, on-site work out facilities, etc).

For what today's athletes make - and how many of them treat the fans (who do ultimately pay their salaries - but that's another topic) - they are a bunch of Prima Donas. Most consider the All Star Game as a waste of their time and not the honor it once was. The fans are nothing more than a nuisance to most of them and as far as they are concerned, their teams owe them something - but again, many of those things are a whole other topic.

As far as talent - let's make all things equal (as equal as we can):

Yesterday's talent keeps their work ethic, honor, pride, etc
Today's talent keeps their Prima Dona attitudes and their 'I'm owed something' outlooks....

Yesterday's talent gets up to date fitness training, updated travel and hotels, etc.
Today's talent gets to wear the heavy wool uniforms, use the smaller less padded gloves (no 14" outfielder's gloves and 12" infielder's gloves), old school cleats (not the padded, cushioned air soled modern ones they are so use to), heavier bats (i.e. not all the various brands, models etc available to them today), etc

Yesterday's talent gets to update their rosters with Negro League players
Today's talent has to match yesterday's with 4 man rotations, no real 'relievers' or closers

When Ernie Banks says 'Let's Play Two', yesterdays stars would be ready to go... today's stars would cry to their union rep that they were being 'over used'.

No AC or Heaters in the dugouts (that would kill the modern players)...

I think that would make it fairly even and yesterday's stars would kick the crap out of today's guys.

The bottom line difference (IMHO) - pride in their work and their TEAM, not just in themselves and how much more they can take from ownership and the fans (signings, etc)

Just my .02

- Smitty