Bats that don't match factory records

[JimCaravello]

Vintagedeputy - great example of real life events that have occured at the factory. I have seen similar examples myself of mis- branding of model numbers. I can live with that - its the M110 model bat that I see in the market that doesn't match factory records and the player has ordered only R161 models during their career that really bothers me...........

[jboosted92]

Ken - great questions. I think you nailed it earlier when you said " what are you comfortable with". That is the key. There is not a right answer here - you and I like to sleep good at night, so we both rely heavily on the records. Others may take a different stance - or I might take a different stance if there is some provenance associated with the item that I feel really good about.

Here's the necessary items for me to buy a bat

( 1 ) has to match factory records - if it doesn't, I pass.....
( 2 ) has to have player attributes / provenance - if not, I pass......
( 3 ) has to have great use
( 4 ) If cracked, it can't be obtrusive or heavily damaged - can't have any pieces missing
( 5 ) if incorrect number is on the knob - I pass......
( 6 ) I don't buy team indexed bats - what the heck is that anyway???? What are you buying? I love the expression "buy a team indexed bat of a HOF player and save money". Well - for my money, I'd rather put it into a factory documented gamer.........

I think for pre-model # bats, number (2) is key. For older bats, I dont put alot of "weight" (no-pun intended) into the weight matching of factory records. In fact, to my knowledge, a bat can lose alot of weight due to deadwood, use, chipping...yada yada

now dont get me wrong, im not buying a 29 ounce Ruth bat, but a 1921-31 35 inch 36 ounce Ruth bat with some deadwood but showing "ruth-characteristics" is better than a 35 inch 42 ounce with no-or minimal characteristics...

like a Brett bat with Pine Tar, or a Cobb bat with Black-Spiral Tape...

just minimums that should have Heavier weight.....

[MSpecht]

Hi Jeff and Ken--

I agree with Jim's responses, and have a few random observations:

Ny preference , also, is bats that match factory shipping records for the individual player, when such records exist. Fortunately, H & B records have been obtained of every Hall of Famer, hundreds of non- Hall of Fame 'star' players, and many lesser players. The HOF players and the 'star' players are, in general, the bats that are going to cost a significant amount of money, which basically translates into "I don't want to make a mistake with these bats." If a bat is identified as a professional model bat, yet doesn't match the records, there are several possible reasons:

1) The most logical explanation is that the bat was a team ordered, or team index bat, ordered by the team for use by any player, Major or Minor League, in the organization. These bats were generally ordered in the most popular models, upwards of 100 to 500 at a time, and requested to have players on the team's signatures on the bats (assuming those players had existing endorsement contracts with H & B.). Many times the 'popular models' had a player's name attached as it was the player's Pro Stock model. (i.e. Mantle K55 bats -- there are many more in existence than he actually ordered as it was not his 'favored' model throughoput his career, but was his Pro Stock model.) These team index bats are professional model bats and often exhibit various amounts of professional use. The problem is that the use is often unable to be directly attributed to a specific player. As Jim mentioned above, you have to look very close at the use characteristics, and many times that is not definitive toward any specific player.

2) There are instances of players ordering bats stamped with other players names. In most cases, however, those orders are going to be recorded in the ordering player's factory records. In Bobby Richardson's case, as noted above, he ordered bats throughout his career with the signatures of other players stamped on the barrel label, including Nellie Fox, Don Mueller, Bob Cerv, and, in particular, Wally Moses. Willie Stargell often had Gene freese's signature stamped on bats he ordered for his use. All of these orders are contained Richardson's and Stargell's personal factory records (in the examples above), not in the records of Fox, Cerv, etc.

On the flip side, however, players who thought another player would get preferential treatment (better quality wood) from the manufacturer, would generally have that teammate order a specific model/length/weight from H & B.. This scenario is seen in the records when there are one or two orders for, say, Johnny Bench, of a model he never used before or after, and in dimensions that were atypical of his documented ordering pattern throughgout his career. What's the scenario here? Either Bench was trying out a new model/length/weight and ultimately didn't like it, or a teammate asked Bench to order the bats as if Bench were ordering the bats for his (Bench's) personal use and getting "preferential Bench treatment" in terms of quality. Either scenario is possible, so it comes down to which scenario is most comfortable to you as a collector. Personally, if the 'random model' also differs significantly from the player's pattern in length and weight, I believe it is unlikely that he ordered it for himself. This is also seen frequently in the records of many Latin American players who ordered a wide variety of assorted models and lengths/weights at the end of the season, and sent them to various youth leagues in their native countries.

3) Are there holes in the records? The answer varies depending on which of the four basic "records" periods you are discussing. Pre- 1920, there are very few records that have surfaced,with various amounts of information beyond, for example, Roger Bresnahan's "His Old Model" being dated 5/20/1911 and indexed at 34 inches.

From 1920 to 1929, many more records exist, most of which contain specific information regarding models, lengths, and weights. The records are considered to be incomplete, but they often provide sufficient information with which to form logical, reasoned opinions regarding a player's preferences and ordering patterns.

From 1930 to 1981, the use of record cards for individual players recorded orders shipped to players for their use, and team records recorded the shipments of team ordered bats for organizational use. These records are much more complete than either of the two preceding types of records, but most authenticators believe that holes in these records also exist. More liberal authenticators believe that many holes exist in these records than do more conservative authenticators.

From 1981 to the present day, records are computerized, and include not only orders shipped to the player for his professional use, but also orders shipped to a team for promotional purposes, various marketing companies, other .entities within baseball, etc. The information found in these records is often the most complete and include more information than the previous records

As always, the key is do your own research, ask questions of those who may have additional resources available, and determine your own personal comfort level. There are deals out there waiting to be found. The best purchases I have seen recently were a perfect factory matched Ralph Kiner bat that went to a forum member within the last two weeks for under $ 500 ( I didn't keep up with the deadline as I automatically figured it would be at least a $3,000 bat), and a factory matched Stan Musial late career bat that was a perfect factory match that went for $ 2,500 a couple days ago (I was either sniped or just plain out-bid.) In the "several thousand dollar plus" price range, I would not play unless the bat matched factory records (if available.) I did pick up a Bobby Bonilla bat yesterday that I don't know if it matches records or not, but since it only cost $5, I am comfortable, as it is a professional model bat.

Finally, when you are considering the purchase of an item, be sure to read AND UNDERSTAND any LOA or Cert that comes with it. For example, there are several Adirondack "D" series bats currently in Ebay auction that have been cert'ed, but when you read the LOA carefully, it states that there is no evidence of Adirondack "D" series bats being used professionally. Unfortunately, there is no mention of these certs in the auctions, and you have to do some hunting to find out the information. For that kind of money, however, the hunt is worth it.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[Birdbats]

Mike,

Great information... very informative. Thanks so much!

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

[sammy]

How about a pro bat that has all the characteristics via length, weight, type of wood, etc., as a well documented professional game bat, but for some reason there is no model number on the knob.

This is a bat from the 1950s-60s so technically there should be a model number stamped on the knob.

Seen any of these?

I asked Troy at MEARS/SCDA once about this and he said a bat like that basically slipped through quality control, and was likely counted in the bat order shipment records for a particular model.

[MSpecht]

Hi Sammy --

The majority of post-1943 H & B bats without model numbers on the knob (through 1979) or on the barrel (post-1979) are found as individual player post-1975 World Series and All-Star bats. Another large group of numberless H & B professional bats were produced during a factory strike in 1974 (with otherwise appropriate 1973-1975 labeling.)

Many collectors are uncomfortable collecting an H & B pro model bat without a number. The bat could be a a commemorative or souvenir bat,a retail bat (possibly with a sanded knob), or, yes, a pro bat that 'missed' quality control.

Are you able to match the bat to a known H & B model, then to the factory records of the player whose name is stamped on the barrel? If so, remember that model numbers, although a key item in professional model bats, are still only one factor by which authenticity may be judged. Do the use characteristics match a known pattern of use for the specific player? I would be more concerned about a superstar or HOF bat with no model number, as the potential for 'alteration' is much greater.

Good Luck. Any additional information or pictures would be helpful to the forum.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[jboosted92]

Hi Sammy --

The majority of post-1943 H & B bats without model numbers on the knob (through 1979) or on the barrel (post-1979) are found as individual player post-1975 World Series and All-Star bats. Another large group of numberless H & B professional bats were produced during a factory strike in 1974 (with otherwise appropriate 1973-1975 labeling.)

Many collectors are uncomfortable collecting an H & B pro model bat without a number. The bat could be a a commemorative or souvenir bat,a retail bat (possibly with a sanded knob), or, yes, a pro bat that 'missed' quality control.

Are you able to match the bat to a known H & B model, then to the factory records of the player whose name is stamped on the barrel? If so, remember that model numbers, although a key item in professional model bats, are still only one factor by which authenticity may be judged. Do the use characteristics match a known pattern of use for the specific player? I would be more concerned about a superstar or HOF bat with no model number, as the potential for 'alteration' is much greater.

Good Luck. Any additional information or pictures would be helpful to the forum.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

I think the alteration peice is key, if the can be deemed "unaltered", your probably ok.

A follow-up question (related/unrelated).. Could Pro-players order LS bats anywhere else, other than DIRECTLY through Hillerich&Bradsby L.S.

Meaning, a local sports shop, that would order them FOR the player... (thinking pre-1940s)

[scottanservitz]

I've been reading all the posts on this topic and mulling over the excellent information that everyone has been adding. To me, the matching factory records are the first step to me in buying a true gamer. The next steps are what Jim lists as his "musts" to be comfortable in a bat to buy. Are there instances where a bat may have been used that don't match factory specs.? Sure. But when you are talking about a HOF bat, I really can't be comfortable unless the bat does match. Losing sleep has been mentioned, even in jest, but I have lost sleep because I had in my bat case bats that weren't what I thought they were. I wasn't happy about it, but I learned from it. I corrected the problems at a monetary loss. But when it was all said and done, I felt much more comfortable with my collection. This site has done wonders for me personally in my collecting endeavors. Without it and the information it has made available to all of us I probably wouldn't be in this hobby. Would anybody buy a classic automobile that has a replacement motor? Sure, but the true collector would want an original motor. I see that same scenario here. If you just want to have a bat with that HOF name on the barrel, that is fine. But if you want a HOF bat that the name on the barrel probably used, then it should match the records in my opinion. Thanks for listening.
Scott

[jboosted92]

do you guys consider "photos" documented gamers?

for instance if there was a pic of Ruth with a Spalding bat? And you have a ruth spalding pro-model bat?

this can be argumentative...just curious on YOUR guys opinoin

[DGRROSEN]

I found all of the information in this thread to be very useful. I recently got Mo Vaughn's LS bat records and proceeded to try to match my bats to the bat records. 11 of the 12 bats matched. The last bat was labled from the 1986-1989 period. Mo was in the minor leagues from 1989 to 1991. The records did not have any orders in 1989 that matched the specs of the 12th bat and I concluded that it was ommitted from the records. Later on I was reviewing info from Vince's "Bats" book about bats labled from the 1986-1989 period. The book stated that bats from the 1986-1989 period were used by players on some minor league teams until 1994. I checked the orders for 1991 and found that the Red Sox AAA team had ordered bats for Mo with specs that matched the 12th bat.