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  1. #1

    Bats that don't match factory records

    Jim and Mike,

    During the past couple of weeks, I've seen two bats on eBay that are not consistent with factory records. There was the George Brett hickory R79 (no record of R79 orders or of hickory finishes for Brett) and now there's the Willie McGee S207 (no record of S207 orders for Willie). Clearly, these bats were manufactured by H&B -- they're not fake. So, why do we see bats that do not exist on factory records?

    Is it because someone simply forgot to record the order?

    Is it because another player is ordering a teammate's bat because he believes the "star" player gets bats with superior wood?

    Are their other explanations?

    Also, regarding the issue of players ordering bats of teammates, I understand this used to happen a great deal. A few years back, I helped a former player sell his collection, which included three Willie Mays bats -- but all had the player's number on the knob, not Willie's. He said he ordered Willie's G69L model for himself because he was sure Willie's bats were made from the best wood. I think many collectors assume that only the player himself (via the equipment manager) can order his own bats. Can you give us some insight into how one player can order another player's bats... and how this is handled/recorded on the shipping records?

    This is a topic about which I've always been curious; the Brett and McGee bats simply make it topical. Thanks!

    Jeff
    http://www.birdbats.com

  2. #2
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    I asked essentially the same Q of Dave Bushing long ago, even before SCDA was started. How do you view a bat that fits all a player's specs (length and weight fall under their normal ranges, proper knob, pro wood grain, etc.) but isn't on their LV records? (note, i'm not talking about an index bat that is 2" shorter than a player's most common model.) He said he'd have to view it as legit until proven otherwise. I don't know if his thoughts have changed in the last few years, but what he said always stuck with me.

    I think as a hobby we are almost relying too much on factory records, and I plead guilty to doing this, too. Once again, I think it all goes back to buying what you are comfortable with.

    Ken
    earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

  3. #3
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Hi Jeff - these are great questions. I actually saw the Brett bat you mentioned on ebay. Let me answer your questions in the order you posted them:

    ( 1 ) Why do we see bats in the market that do not exist on factory records? There are several explanations for this, as follows: ( a ) the bat you see and the order it was from was not recorded in the records - provenance and use attributes would be important to ascertain that a player actually used that bat. For instance, if the Brett bat was 32", there's a high likelihood that Brett never ordered the bat and it was not omitted from his records, ( b ) the bat was ordered by another player, ( c ) the bat was ordered by the team - or another team ( team indexed bat ), ( d ) the bat is a promotional bat that was never recorded in factory records. There also may be other possibilites such as the bat may be a store model bat which may have slipped out of the factory.

    ( 2 ) Did someone forget to record the order? Yes - as mentioned above, this is a possibility, but use, provenance, length and weight would in comparison to other orders be important to determine if it really was the player's bat that he used.

    ( 3 ) Are other player's ordering teammate's bats because he believes the "star" player gets bats with superiod wood? In many instances, players have ordered bats that they have given to other players to use and players have also ordered bats of different players as evidenced by reviewing the Louisville Slugger records. You are correct in saying that many collector's assume that only the player himself can order his own bats. A great example of this is Bobby Richardson - you know why you see very few of his bats in the market? The reason is that early in his career, he would order Nellie Fox signature model bats ( Fox didn't even play on the same team ) as opposed to his own signature model bat. The Louisville Slugger records are full of examples of this, especially in the 30's and 40's as model numbers were just being created and many player's ordered bats of the stars that they used and liked.

    I personally prefer my bats to ( 1 ) match factory records and ( 2 ) have use attributes and characteristics that tie the bat to the player. I will pay more for that and I always get more when I go to sell the bat. Ken - I diagree with you a little, in the context that I sleep better knowing that my bat has the player's number on the knob, matches records, has the use on the correct side of the barrel, the tar matches up to known examples and photos, etc.

    Great post - let me know if you have any other questions. Jim

  4. #4

    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Thanks for the detailed response, Jim.

    I didn't include team index bats as an option in my question because, I assumed, index bats were typically the same model used by the player, but a different length and/or weight. For example, if a player generally used a T85, then any team orders with that player's name also would be T85 -- but potentially with different specs. Is that assumption off base?

    The Brett and McGee bats struck me as odd because neither model ever was ordered for the player. Wouldn't it be unusual for a team to order bats with Brett's name, but not a model or finish he ever used? Same with McGee -- seems strange an equipment manager would say, "We need an order of S207 bats... I think I'll ask them to burn in Willie McGee's name."

    I know index bats have been discussed here before, but I still find them confusing. From your response, it sounds like any team could order any model bat with any player's name burned in the barrel. True?

    Thanks for your help!

    Jeff
    http://www.birdbats.com

  5. #5
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Jim, actually I don't think you are disagreeing with me, I sleep better knowing all that, too. It's just that I wonder if some rely too much on the factory records; I know I've ignored bats that didn't perfectly match the records, even though everything else about it was correct.

    For example, suppose this Brett bat was perfect in every way except that the model number doesn't match any records. (I didn't really pay attention to that particular bat, so I'm playing hypothetical). How do we rate it compared to a Brett bat that matches perfectly but has another player's knob (which I would stay away from.) Or compare it to a bat that matches records, has the correct number, but absolutely no pine tar? Or shows scoring on the handle and perhaps Brett never did that? I sleep best knowing ALL attributes are there, too, but I was wondering out loud which ones need to match to at least get us in a comfortable zone.

    Am I being clear, or just rambling here?? It's hard to tell sometimes!

    Perhaps this would make a good poll? "Rank the attributes necessary before you'd buy a Game Used bat"

    Ken

  6. #6
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Hi Jeff - a couple of comments - Your assumption of team indexed bats is generally true, but there are examples of team index bats that do match the player's actual specs - not in great numbers - but they are out there.

    Also - do you remember my original blog on Team Index Bats when I referred to the Aldo Caravello ordering example where he ordered Joe Dimaggio bats in similar length and weight to Joe?

    Thus - I think it's quite possible that a team and or another player can order a bat of a player that matches the player's ordering specs.......now keep in mind, most of this occurred prior to the 70's and to a great extent, prior to the 60's. You see very few post 60's and 70's records where players ordered other players bats. Team indexed bats were still being ordered - but the records clearly show as we move into the 70's call it - that players did not really order other player's models. Lousiville had grown dramatically and had a staff to accomodate the major leagues and take orders from anyone who wanted bats.

    Regarding the Brett - I think that's a promotional bat myself. I haven't seen the Mcgee and will take a look at that. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks, Jim

  7. #7
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Ken - great questions. I think you nailed it earlier when you said " what are you comfortable with". That is the key. There is not a right answer here - you and I like to sleep good at night, so we both rely heavily on the records. Others may take a different stance - or I might take a different stance if there is some provenance associated with the item that I feel really good about.

    Here's the necessary items for me to buy a bat

    ( 1 ) has to match factory records - if it doesn't, I pass.....
    ( 2 ) has to have player attributes / provenance - if not, I pass......
    ( 3 ) has to have great use
    ( 4 ) If cracked, it can't be obtrusive or heavily damaged - can't have any pieces missing
    ( 5 ) if incorrect number is on the knob - I pass......
    ( 6 ) I don't buy team indexed bats - what the heck is that anyway???? What are you buying? I love the expression "buy a team indexed bat of a HOF player and save money". Well - for my money, I'd rather put it into a factory documented gamer.........

  8. #8
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    I absolutely stay away from index bats, too. I also won't buy a bat with the wrong number, and I'm almost always staying away from blacked out knobs.

    I usually look for great use, although this isn't a definite for me; for example, i have a gary sheffield bat that from the front shows virtually no use, but has 3 really strong ball knocks on the back; i know it's not the most valuable of his bats, but it displays really cool.

    Ken

    PS, sorry to hijack the thread!!

  9. #9
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    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    Hijacking is allowed!! Great posts!!

  10. #10

    Re: Bats that don't match factory records

    I have a 77-79 LS Bill Madlock bat that's been discussed here before. LS records show that Madlock ordered C235 and C263 bats. Mine is a model number C253. The bat seems to match Madlock characteristics in all other respects.

    A LS rep said that "I guess the brander that day transposed the numbers".

 

 

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