6 charged with fraud

[SaintsGeaux]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

seriously? Thats beyond BS. I own an autograph signing company for 20 years now. I have never had the FBI knock on my door because of forgeries I have sold not to mention never had ONE lawsuit brought upon me. So not sure what you are basing this opinion on.

I dont know which is more disturbing at this point the fact that this went down OR that people who have items from them feel the need to blindly defend this mess.

Glad to see a voice of reason. We live in a litigious society with an abundance of lawyers that make their living by suing people. Those type of lawsuits for torts and civil suits are far different from the FBI knocking on your door and charges of FRAUD.

When your business is all about product integrity and that integrity is called into question, what do you have left? Pockets full of money? Take that to your grave. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and a sometimes a moment to tarnish it.

This isn't a moment we are discussing here. The charges are clear. This isn't a singular moment rather a long established pattern vanishing the integrity of all aspects of their business.

Fool me once shame on you, Short84 - fool me twice shame on me.

[mickeymbz]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

not defending nor hangin JO... but how come we never hear about the endless supplies of Naimith,Montana,Kareems, Wilkes, Paytons,OJ,Birds,95/96 jordans and to some extent Sayers that are always poppin up on GFC??? how come ive heard nothin but "if its from GFC it must.... or will it has a GFC loa". just sayin......

[nickacs]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

The fact that Rob resigned (I did most of my transactions through him) speaks loudly.

FYI, to all those that have mentioned Rob resigned, this has nothing to do with this FBI case, as he recently took a managerial position at Lids. Coincidence? Maybe, but in talking with the "other" Rob the other day, this is what he told me.

Funny, I'm quite surprised the Mods here haven't locked this thread down by the 300th post..LOL... Yes, as an owner of 2 game used JO jerseys from last season, this does "shake" me a little, but as others said, I can photomatch both jerseys to video/Getty images with no problem.

I, as well as everyone, look forward to seeing the actual "incidents" of this case and the outcome. But in the meantime, I think all the back/forth accusations/personal attacks (about 10 pages back!) is uncalled for and just wasting forum space

I do think this is a great thing the FBI/law enforcement is doing as whole to help our hobby. I wish this happened about 15yrs or so ago with other SCD/other dealers that ripped me off knowingly!

Chompin' back on some popcorn too... LOL

[MarkakisMania]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

not defending nor hangin JO... but how come we never hear about the endless supplies of Naimith,Montana,Kareems, Wilkes, Paytons,OJ,Birds,95/96 jordans and to some extent Sayers that are always poppin up on GFC??? how come ive heard nothin but "if its from GFC it must.... or will it has a GFC loa". just sayin......

I for one have been questioning the blind lovefest directed toward GFC for years. Their owner Rich Russek is an ex con who has been known to shovel complete crap through his auctions for years. After that ridiculous episode on People's court 6 years ago where Russek was taken to the woodshed over the Ripken jersey from his auction, it was just another in a long line of bad examples that show just what kind of guy is running the show over there. I see people all the time post on here if it is coming from GFC it has got to be above reproach. While GFC does have some good products and has sold unquestioned items of authenticity, they have also shoveled their fair share of crap through this business over the years.

I would not honestly even put them in the top five auction houses in terms of authentic unquestioned items. I have houses like REA, Lelands, Huggins and Scott, Hunt, and Heritage ahead of them based on those companies willingness to address bad stuff if and when it put in their auctions. I have been very successful in contacting those above mentioned companies in the past and if you can show them something is bad it has been pulled in my experience. The same cannot be said for GFC.

As mentioned in a prior post this is just the latest bomb to drop after Jensen was taken down at the National two months ago and hopefully not the last. Now that Steve Jensen was taken down and now JO and Brad Wells formally of Historic Auctions which was a sham of a company, Guys like Russek, Vic Moreno, Lou Lampson, Bricoe, Coaches Corner won't be too far behind at least one can only hope. Some of these guys have been running amuck in this hobby for decades and they continue to make it a laughing stock all the way to the bank.

There is good and bad in this hobby but what does not help is when the bad guys get caught with their hand in the till doing some really dirty business and people come on here and literally say, I don't care what they did I am going to still support them. No wonder these companies continue to thrive and stay in business. Collectors are shown repeated patterns of abuse and yet they continue to give business to these companies and then we question why this industry does not get cleaned up.

It is really just very pathetic.

Jeb

[schubert1970]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

I find it funny that anyone who has puchased a JO jersey has the need to tell everyone that their stuff is fine cause they photo matched it. It's like some deceleration to let themselves know their items ore ok. If your that confident about your items, remove anything and everything from the jersey that has JO on it.

[MarkakisMania]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

What is also funny to me is that three other names not really getting any press on this or at least any play on this forum prove the point on here to a tee of once a criminal always a criminal.

Bernie Gernay, Brad Wells and Mitch Schumaker have all been caught in the past either criminally or on this forum and elsewhere doing illegal acts in this business. I remember countless threads about Brad Wells at ASI and then later Historic that simply shredded that man on his horrible business practices as well as Bernie and Mitch. Just do some searches on old threads going back 4 - 6 years and you will find them. There were countless defenders that came running to these guys aid and now crickets are chirping. Nobody mentions how these guys were all given second chances and now they are all being arrested for continued illegal activity. Based on these few examples, I guess we should just give JO and every other company and individual the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned earlier, history has shown us repeatedly that these individuals and companies time after time are caught red handed and yet are given chance after chance by forum members and others and then somehow it comes as some giant shock when they are caught five years later doing the same or similar dirty business.

I just find it kind of funny that it seems as long as some collectors can photo match their items they seem fine with the fact that this company apparently was doctoring other items to appear real and selling them as such. That is just stupidty on every level. How can you defend that type of business practice. Again, it is what keeps these criminals in business. While we don't know the specifics here, I am going to tend to agree with the Attorney Legal Eagle here and his summary of this situation. Something is bad enough that their should be massive concern. Whatever we find out, I find it alarming that if I am reading this correctly, many collectors who have done business with this company in the past are ready to simply look past all of this as long as they can photo match items going forward.

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is my take. If JO is definitively found guilty or pleads out to doctoring jersey's to make them game used and selling items as game used that they definitively knew were not, those of you who are singing their praises are stating that you are fine with this as long as you can continue to photo match items coming from them going forward. If I am reading this wrong then I apologize but that is exactly how it seems to read from several members.

Jeb

[gingi79]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

This thread proves what I have said privately for years.

You are either a JO person or you aren't. Either you trust them and their entire inventory or you think they are corrupt and overcharge for their jerseys. Maybe a few people will change sides after this but the majority of us will stay on the same side we were 2 weeks ago.

No matter what, all this thread is doing is screaming "Are you stupid?" towards the people on the other side of your fence. You aren't going to sway anyone. No one is going to listen to you no matter how rational you think you are. No matter how clever you think you are, this thread is just making it harder for collectors to trust EACH OTHER because of how and what you posted here.

So instead of insulting each other and hurting our own reputations, maybe we should just "Move along. Nothing to see here" until more information comes out. Just a humble suggestion.....

[BostonSportsFan]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

This thread proves what I have said privately for years.

You are either a JO person or you aren't. Either you trust them and their entire inventory or you think they are corrupt and overcharge for their jerseys. Maybe a few people will change sides after this but the majority of us will stay on the same side we were 2 weeks ago.

No matter what, all this thread is doing is screaming "Are you stupid?" towards the people on the other side of your fence. You aren't going to sway anyone. No one is going to listen to you no matter how rational you think you are. No matter how clever you think you are, this thread is just making it harder for collectors to trust EACH OTHER because of how and what you posted here.

So instead of insulting each other and hurting our own reputations, maybe we should just "Move along. Nothing to see here" until more information comes out. Just a humble suggestion.....

That pretty much sums this whole thread up. It would seem that people have drawn their line in the sand and nothing no matter what evidence is shown will sway people to see things differently.

That all being said, there are numerous people in life that could be shown video, photographic and DNA evidence of a person standing over a dead body and they would still dispute that a murder took place and the person holding the bloody knife is guilty.

Although we are not privy to much information to this point regarding the Federal case against the individuals named one can assume that there is enough compelling evidence that the FEDS have in their possession that they believe that they can make a case in court and obtain a guilty verdict if it comes to that.

Even if I was a JO supporter or supporter of any of these other companies or individuals mentioned to this point in the indictment, at the very, very least, until I had any additional information, I would not be blindly throwing support to any one of these companies just because I had a great relationship with one or more of their sales reps or a history of great transactions with them in the past. That same thought process can be applied to any business entity, person etc.

I don't have a dog in this fight per se and I agree both sides are piling on to the point of being a bit ridiculous.

I am just not sure at this point how anybody can be so definitively supportive of this or any company, person or entity based on any prior relationship when you know just as little about the circumstances surrounding this Federal investiagation as the people who are on the other side of the fence piling on. Perhaps we should assume innocence until their is absolute proof of guilt but if we are to understand the legal terminology that was explained by a practicing attorney Legal Eagle, then it would appear that this named individual is preparing to plead guilty to something. If you are innocent, you don't plead guilty that is fairly straight forward at least in this type of case. Other standards may apply to murder or rape etc. based on plea deals etc.

In the end, even if I am an absolutely staunch supporter of JO or Bradley Wells, Mitchell Schumaker or any of the other named defendants, I am going to be very, very careful in my defense of them as I might later regret taking such a hard line stand in support of them once all the facts come out. That can certainly work both ways but I would err on the side of caution at this point as a supporter rather than throw blind allegiance to anybody that ultimately is known only through a business deal or a dozen business deals and nothing more.

That is my take but as Mr. Baltimore Gingi suggested, we should all perhaps weigh carefully our support to either side until more facts come out.

Joe

[34swtns]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is my take. If JO is definitively found guilty or pleads out to doctoring jersey's to make them game used and selling items as game used that they definitively knew were not, those of you who are singing their praises are stating that you are fine with this as long as you can continue to photo match items coming from them going forward.
Jeb

Yep, pretty much.
When you get a marketing contract for Bears game worn jerseys then I'll start buying from you.
No shame here, whatsoever. As long as I get what I need to expand my collection it's all water under the bridge. I do my homework, match the stuff before I buy it and it's all good. All my stuff is 100% the real deal because I made sure of that by doing the necessary legwork to insure that.
If you were dumb enough to get taken, it's on you.
I sleep like a baby, bet on that.

[MarkakisMania]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Yep, pretty much.
When you get a marketing contract for Bears game worn jerseys then I'll start buying from you.
No shame here, whatsoever. As long as I get what I need to expand my collection it's all water under the bridge. I do my homework, match the stuff before I buy it and it's all good. All my stuff is 100% the real deal because I made sure of that by doing the necessary legwork to insure that.
If you were dumb enough to get taken, it's on you.
I sleep like a baby, bet on that.

I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general? As it was pointed out on another post, it is sometimes difficult to achieve photo matches on CB's or safties or other positions that may or may not be prominently featured on tv or by photos depending for instance how many times they were thrown at in a game etc.

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb

[BostonSportsFan]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general? As it was pointed out on another post, it is sometimes difficult to achieve photo matches on CB's or safties or other positions that may or may not be prominently featured on tv or by photos depending for instance how many times they were thrown at in a game etc.

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb

Jeb, as mentioned, I would at this point give it up. Nobody is going to be swayed by this back and forth one way or the other. I think all of these points have been made on several ocassions by several posts and nothing new is being gained by any of this.

Just my opinion friend to friend.

Best

Joe

[frikativ54]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

In the end it would appear that this type of mentality is ultimately what keeps the criminals in business however be it JO, AMI, 100% Authentic featuring Lampson, Bricoe Auctions, Crotches Corner, Rich Russek, Steve Jensen etc. As long as people buy from known criminals, they will never close their doors. Sure they sell good stuff but that is how they keep getting away with it. Mix in 5 bad pieces for every 95 good pieces or 10 bad to 90 good whatever your percentage and just keep piling up the profits while ultimately the industry and the collector suffer.

Jeb

Jeb

LOL!

[34swtns]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

I don't know the scope of your collection beyond obviously the Bears as a team, but does that mean if you absolutely cannot achieve a photo match you don't buy an item? Just curious not even specifically referring to JO but in general?

Absolutely. That should be everyone's rule of thumb.
And if a seller can't send you detailed pics of the hits, stains and rips, don't buy from them.

No match = no purchase.

[masp3392]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Absolutely. That should be everyone's rule of thumb.
And if a seller can't send you detailed pics of the hits, stains and rips, don't buy from them.

No match = no purchase.

agreed 100%

[xpress34]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

I would suggest everyone read the MASAUCTION thread that Skube has resurrected in this section...

There were a lot of people back then defending Mitch and saying maybe Mitch had changed and seen the errors of his ways, etc, etc and that he should be given a break to prove himself...

Those that brought up his past were vilified for mentioning it...

What's the old saying:

Fool me once - Shame on You.
Foll me twice - Shame on Me.

Just goes to show that tigers truly can't change their stripes...

- Smitty

The above is a post I mad EARLY in this thread referring to Mitch Schumacher...

At the risk of being slammed from either side, I am going to voice my opinion - like it or not, it is still my opinion and I am entitled to it like everyone else.

1st, I am a BASEBALL guy and I have NEVER had any dealings with JO so I have no dog in this fight.

2nd, Does that mean I should 'Shut the F&$ Up as someone else mentioned? NO. Why? Because whether I deal with this outfit or someone else, fraud and deception is BAD for our hobby period.

3rd, Those who are 'Okay with whatever JO has done as long as their stuff is okay'... That's a bit of small minded thinking and I'll explain that statement further down that might make you reconsider your position.

4th, This isn't a wait and see what JO is charged with - this is a what did they admit to doing as theirs is a CRIMINAL INFORMATION meaning they have admitted that there is enough going forward for the prosecution to make a case, so they are copping a plea to hep their cause.

Let me restate another post I made earlier in this thread for JO's website:

From JO's 'About Us' page:

About J.O. Sports Co LLC

J.O. Sports Co LLC was established in 2003 and launched its online website in 2008.

Among the many facets of game used memorabilia, J.O. Sports Co LLC specializes in NFL team and player deals. Our business model focuses on bringing legitimate game used merchandise to the collecting community.

We are honored to help bring integrity and honesty to the industry by offering authentic game used and autographed memorabilia to collectors. We have built a model that benefits the teams, the players and the fans. Our direct relationship with the teams and players sets us apart from other game used dealers and we will continue to stay focused on being a legitimate source for all of your game used needs.

With the ever-growing need for collectors to find legitimate sources of game used and autographed memorabilia, J.O. Sports Co LLC is proud to establish itself as an industry leader.

If they are pleading out to the charges stated, then the above statements are bold faced LIES and deceitful business practices.

did jo sports take a plea agreement? The article implies they may have? If you take a plea your as good as guilty.

The four charged by information with mail fraud, indicating they may have already reached a plea agreement with prosecutors, were:

BERNARD GERNAY, a resident of New Jersey, involved in the business operations of Pro Sports Investments, Inc., a New Jersey business;

BRADLEY HORNE, a South Carolina resident, involved in the business operations of Authentic Sports Memorabilia, Inc., a South Carolina business;

JARROD OLDRIDGE, a resident of Nevada, involved in business operations of JO Sports, Inc., a Nevada business; and,

MITCHELL SCHUMACHER, a resident of Wisconsin, using the trade name MS Sports.

Interesting to note:

From a law blog...

"An information is generally used when a defendant, or potential defendant, agrees that there is enough evidence to proceed with the case, thereby compelling said defendant to appear in court and enter a plea to the information, i.e. charges contained therein, just like an indictment. In agreeing to be prosecuted on an information you are waiving your right to have the case presented to a grand jury.

The advantages are that you are cooperating with the prosecutor in not making them do more work than they want to. It also can serve to keep your case a little quieter. Most courts don't publicize the filing of informations unless someone notifies the media.

The advantages to the prosecutor are many. As pointed out he/she doesn't have to prepare the case for grand jury presentation. He/she doesn't risk the failure of a bill being handed up. He/she relies on you to show up in court as promised. He/she uses the fact that you have admitted that there is evidence to prosecute as leverage to gain a favorable plea."

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times... in this industry/hobby, all you have ultimately is your reputation. Once it's tarnished, you can't just 'buff' it back up...[quote]

Now, to my comment about 'small minded thinking' and how stuff like this is bad for our hobby - even for you guys that have 'photo matched' items from JO.

So some of you are 'Okay with whatever happened' as long as your stuff is good. You can think it's up to everyone else to 'do their homework, but I would venture a guess that when you 1st got into this hobby, you didn't know much and had to learn through trial and error and talking to others. Their are more people joining this hobby all the time and each of them have to start like each of us, by learning what's going on.

So, JO does some 'magic' to make a jersey of Player X appear GU and sells it as such to newbie collector A. You think you're okay because YOUR Player X jersey is Photo Matched and you don't care if newbie collector A gets screwed. So newbie B, C, D, etc all get screwed for more of the same fake Player X jersey. All from the same source. Now, there are MULTIPLE 'GU' Player X jerseys on the market - you don't know the others are fake because the seller hasn't been busted yet. Those MULTIPLE GU jerseys mean yours is worth LESS because of the saturated market.

Now the seller gets busted and the Fakes start popping out of the woodwork. You feel comfortable that YOUR jersey is fine because of the photo match... but is it? Because of the charges on the fake jerseys, no one wants to touch your jersey with a ten foot pole, so again your jersey has lost value.

This is a LOSE-LOSE situation for the current jersey holders, but Ultimately a WIN for the hobby if it exposes and removes more fake jerseys from the hobby.

By not caring about the 'other' jerseys they 'created', you ultimately don't care about the hobby as a whole - only your own little collection - and that isn't healthy for the hobby.

When fraud, deceit and deception raise their ugly head, EVERYONE needs to be involved and concerned about calling it out and cleaning it up.

I'll give you an analogy - I use to work in Loss Prevention for Nike - base on my former profession. As a Loss Prevention agent, it was my job to prevent theft (internal and external - shop lifting) and keep our shrink down. Many stores don't care about Loss Prevention and it's bad for their patrons just like this fraud is bad for the hobby. Why? Because they pass the LOSSES onto you as a patron by raising prices by a penny here and a penny there. When we let Fraud run rampant in our hobby, we ruin the value, the trust, etc and ultimately end up paying more to verify legitimacy of the items in question.

When statements are made by members that they can afford the best and can afford the photo matching, etc and 'too bad' for those that can't - they end up sounding like elitist snobs.

Sorry for the long rant, but it's my .02 and the LAW (The U.S. Constitution) says I'm entitled to it. (oh yeah, and my Right to FREE Speech).

- Smitty