6 charged with fraud

[Gocong57]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

I once saw a news report where identity thieves paid amphetamine addicts to go through office trash and assemble bags and bags of shredded documents to extract a small piece of personal info. Arduous work that fit the additcts' temperament. I thought that was crazy, the lengths folks would go to make money illegally.

Rubbing jerseys in dirt, ripping them, paying someone to work out and sweat in, taking a hockey stick and edge-burring the material--all to make an ordinary scrub's game-issued into a star player gamer of much ehanced value and potential profitability is most certainly not out of the question, esp. during these financially desperate times.

Finally, someone from the other side of the fence. It's great to have you here, it's lonely on this end!! I have been reading this entire thread, and I'm starting to lose sight of reality. I have also read somewhere in here that someone is now skeptical of photomatches, because they think that JO is now using photomatching sites to doctor jerseys???

I mean seriously...do some of you think that JO Sports Co receives boxes of game issued jerseys, and then proceeds to have a team of runners wear them to get them sweaty and smelly? And then have a group of people put on those same jerseys to go play football in the backyard, to give them ball marks, hit marks, grass, mud, and turf stains? Then once the game is over, everyone takes their "fabricated" game issued jerseys to a group of seamstresses who manufacture team repairs, and also add any further customizations for each specific player on the roster?

Clearly I'm being cynical...but do some of you really think that 100% of what is sold on the JO Sports website is fake?? And do you think that every equipment manager from each NFL team they have a contract with is in on the scam too? Seems like a hell of a lot of work in order to turn some game issued jerseys into game worn, no???

And does anyone even know the details of this case? Can anyone speak intelligently as to JO's involvment in this case? All that I have seen are people making insane accusations about how everything JO sells is fake, and that people don't put any faith in team LOA/COA's, or photomatches.

Let's use this example: Person A knows someone at a Card Company (Person C) who wants to buy a game worn jeresey in order to cut into pieces. Person B knows how to get in touch with Person C at the Card Company. Person A uses Person B as a middle man, and Person C at the Card Company gets what they think is a game worn jersey, cut it up into pieces and put into baseball cards. The jersey coming from Person A was a retail or game issued jersey. Person C thought it was game used. Person C cuts the jersey into pieces and sells is as a game worn insert. This scenario is entirely possible...but it doesn't seem to me like everything person B now touches should be considered fake, does it?

Just a few thoughts...now let the abuse begin!!!

[short84]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Thank goodness I never delete important sent messages. This is my email message dated March 14, 2011 concerning a jersey I purchased from JO Sports through their eBay account calm6676. See below:

Dear Robert and Matt,

I purchased the jersey mentioned below as eBay item 190502403757 on February 15, 2011.


Quincy Butler 2008 Season Game Worn Jersey! Rams!
This millennium blue St. Louis Rams jersey was worn by Quincy Butler during the 2008 NFL Season. The jersey inside neck contains the "07-46-S" swatch tag indicating the year and size. The "Georgia" patch is sewn on the left chest representing the death of the Rams owner. Butler's number "36" is on front and back sewn in new century gold tackle twill with white outline. On back sewn on a milennium blue name plate is "BUTLER" in white tackle twill. Jersey shows good use.
Butler attended TCU.
The description is copied directly from eBay. Yesterday, I tried to photo-match it or at least see if I could identify which game it could have been worn in. I gave the jersey a thorough inspection only to discover there was no evidence that suggested this jersey had been worn in a game. The description above states the “jersey shows good use”. This jersey shows no use. I did an internet search and found that Quincy Butler was signed by the Rams on December 8, 2008 and was active for only one game. This quote is from the Rams web site (www.stlouisrams.com) --2008 SEASON: Played in one game for the Rams…inactive for two other contests…joined the Rams via waivers from Dallas (12/8)...
When I visited the NFL website (www.nfl.com) I found a game log for 2008 for Quincy Butler. This showed him active for one game for the Rams and that was week 17 at Atlanta on 12/28/08. The following websites list him as inactive for games played December 14, 2008 and December 21, 2008 -http://www.thehuddle.com/x8/season/w15/gdr.php and http://www.thehuddle.com/x8/season/w16/gdr.php .
I visited Getty images and the Rams wore their white jerseys during this game. There are several photographs taken during this game that proves this. I believe this blue jersey was never game worn as the COA indicates since Quincy Butler was only active for one game and the team wore white.
I also noted one other item. The Georgia patch on this jersey does not seem to match the patches on the other jerseys you have listed and sold or the other blue jersey I purchased. The patch on this jersey is larger in size and a different color and texture (smooth). The other jerseys seem to have a smaller patch that is more of a blue color and has a courser texture. In my opinion as a collector and based upon my investigation, using references such as the Rams web site, the official website of the NFL, and a couple of other sources, I am certain this is an issued jersey that was not worn in a game.
Since there is no evidence to suggest this jersey was ever worn in a game, the COA that accompanied the jersey is not valid. The COA states this jersey was game worn during the 2008 season which is not true. When the hologram is looked up on the JO Sports website, it also shows this as a game used jersey which is not true.
The return policy on eBay states that returns are not accepted. However, this is a clear case of misrepresentation with a COA attached to a jersey that is incorrect. Your website states that “We are honored to help bring integrity and honesty to the industry by offering authentic game used and autographed memorabilia to collectors.” I am open to a solution so we can rectify this situation. It is unfortunate this jersey was not inspected carefully before a written description was attached to it or a COA issued.
Please contact me a soon as possible with a solution. I would be happy to return it for a complete refund including my costs for return postage or working out a trade. Thank you very much.
Susanne Short

[short84]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

The Butler Rams jersey is the one I returned at MY cost and was later listed and sold on eBay by another collector as "game used" with the same phoney COA. The representatives at JO Sports knew this was a bad jersey but let it leave their business as "game worn" so some other poor slob was misled.

[SaintsGeaux]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Why is it "not the case" anymore? This is getting insane...not a single person on this thread has brought any photographic, or tangible evidence that something that they had purchased from JO Sports was not authentic. These charges are stemming from an incident, in which NO ONE knows the details of, and was before JO even had a website.

You use the phrase "an incident" as in a singular event. Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

You are also looking for non-photomatches. Give it time. Collectors are still in a state of shock and I'm sure some will come forward.

There are 3 posters who were sold/offered what they believed to be game issued which were sold as game used. I'm not saying it is criminal fraud as that would need to include "intent" to defraud which I won't assume but there is more than coincidence there. If they are too busy to not know the difference then shame on them as they should find a different career.

[jhunt28]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Thank goodness I never delete important sent messages. This is my email message dated March 14, 2011 concerning a jersey I purchased from JO Sports through their eBay account calm6676. See below:

Dear Robert and Matt,

I purchased the jersey mentioned below as eBay item 190502403757 on February 15, 2011.


Quincy Butler 2008 Season Game Worn Jersey! Rams!
This millennium blue St. Louis Rams jersey was worn by Quincy Butler during the 2008 NFL Season. The jersey inside neck contains the "07-46-S" swatch tag indicating the year and size. The "Georgia" patch is sewn on the left chest representing the death of the Rams owner. Butler's number "36" is on front and back sewn in new century gold tackle twill with white outline. On back sewn on a milennium blue name plate is "BUTLER" in white tackle twill. Jersey shows good use.
Butler attended TCU.
The description is copied directly from eBay. Yesterday, I tried to photo-match it or at least see if I could identify which game it could have been worn in. I gave the jersey a thorough inspection only to discover there was no evidence that suggested this jersey had been worn in a game. The description above states the “jersey shows good use”. This jersey shows no use. I did an internet search and found that Quincy Butler was signed by the Rams on December 8, 2008 and was active for only one game. This quote is from the Rams web site (www.stlouisrams.com) --2008 SEASON: Played in one game for the Rams…inactive for two other contests…joined the Rams via waivers from Dallas (12/8)...
When I visited the NFL website (www.nfl.com) I found a game log for 2008 for Quincy Butler. This showed him active for one game for the Rams and that was week 17 at Atlanta on 12/28/08. The following websites list him as inactive for games played December 14, 2008 and December 21, 2008 -http://www.thehuddle.com/x8/season/w15/gdr.php and http://www.thehuddle.com/x8/season/w16/gdr.php .
I visited Getty images and the Rams wore their white jerseys during this game. There are several photographs taken during this game that proves this. I believe this blue jersey was never game worn as the COA indicates since Quincy Butler was only active for one game and the team wore white.
I also noted one other item. The Georgia patch on this jersey does not seem to match the patches on the other jerseys you have listed and sold or the other blue jersey I purchased. The patch on this jersey is larger in size and a different color and texture (smooth). The other jerseys seem to have a smaller patch that is more of a blue color and has a courser texture. In my opinion as a collector and based upon my investigation, using references such as the Rams web site, the official website of the NFL, and a couple of other sources, I am certain this is an issued jersey that was not worn in a game.
Since there is no evidence to suggest this jersey was ever worn in a game, the COA that accompanied the jersey is not valid. The COA states this jersey was game worn during the 2008 season which is not true. When the hologram is looked up on the JO Sports website, it also shows this as a game used jersey which is not true.
The return policy on eBay states that returns are not accepted. However, this is a clear case of misrepresentation with a COA attached to a jersey that is incorrect. Your website states that “We are honored to help bring integrity and honesty to the industry by offering authentic game used and autographed memorabilia to collectors.” I am open to a solution so we can rectify this situation. It is unfortunate this jersey was not inspected carefully before a written description was attached to it or a COA issued.
Please contact me a soon as possible with a solution. I would be happy to return it for a complete refund including my costs for return postage or working out a trade. Thank you very much.
Susanne Short

This is a great example. Did anyone respond to you? Did you get your money back? If not, did you try calling anyone? ...perhaps the description of the jersey was just copied from another Rams jersey? I know that when they get jerseys in, they can get hundreds at a time. And if a team sends them in a batch with Game Used COA's, then that's what they get listed as. I don't think they have time to photomatch every jersey that comes in...that is what the customer is supposed to do. People do make mistakes when entering descriptions, etc. I just highly doubt that someone was trying to "scam" you, when selling you the jersey of a player who has played in 1 NFL football game.

[jhunt28]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

You use the phrase "an incident" as in a singular event. Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

You are also looking for non-photomatches. Give it time. Collectors are still in a state of shock and I'm sure some will come forward.

There are 3 posters who were sold/offered what they believed to be game issued which were sold as game used. I'm not saying it is criminal fraud as that would need to include "intent" to defraud which I won't assume but there is more than coincidence there. If they are too busy to not know the difference then shame on them as they should find a different career.

I know nothing that you don't know.

[SaintsGeaux]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

The Butler Rams jersey is the one I returned at MY cost and was later listed and sold on eBay by another collector as "game used" with the same phoney COA. The representatives at JO Sports knew this was a bad jersey but let it leave their business as "game worn" so some other poor slob was misled.

If we are to believe your story, this is a damning piece of evidence. What do the counsel for the defense have to say? Yes, I am talking to Hunt, Bear and Palehose.

[trsent]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

The Butler Rams jersey is the one I returned at MY cost and was later listed and sold on eBay by another collector as "game used" with the same phoney COA. The representatives at JO Sports knew this was a bad jersey but let it leave their business as "game worn" so some other poor slob was misled.

This is a perfect example of what got Vintage Authentics' name in lights.

With the example of JO above, someone showed them proof that an item was sold as not what they advertised it to be. This is not a crime. It happens from time to time that maybe they didn't do enough homework after receiving an item from a team. Not the end of the world.

But the end of the story that they relisted it and sold it again as game worn after being alerted the jersey couldn't have been more than an extra jersey made for the player if they made the rooster on a given week, well there is our issue.

Why these companies wouldn't do the right thing when alerted to an issue with an item makes it very unethical and a crime.

[project 4]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

That's ridiculous.

Please explain how that's ridiculous? If there is clear evidence that information has been falsified then that taints the reputation of the company and puts in question every COA they put out there. They are liable for false advertising and due to the lack of business integrity the COA's become in large part invalid, thus creating a depreciation in value of purchased merchandise. I would never be able to get back what I purchased my item for b/c at this point people are more likely to stay away from products backed by JO's COAs.

I like JO. Don't get me wrong. Never had any problems with them and I'm not saying that what I purchased is fake. Am I 100% certain it's legit? I can't claim that anymore nor can I change people's perception of JO's COA's if I decide to sell down the road. It's just that a huge question mark has been placed on their stuff given the current situation. I'm hoping that all this stuff about Jared is just an oversight and am waiting for an explanation from them on their website. I really am hoping for the best for their company as I enjoy and frequent their website as well as their auctions.
But having said all that at this point there needs to be accountability and as a customer I would like some answers.

[jhunt28]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

If we are to believe your story, this is a damning piece of evidence. What do the counsel for the defense have to say? Yes, I am talking to Hunt, Bear and Palehose.

If it was sold again as "game worn", after it was pointed out that a mistake was made, then yes, that is damning. I agree with you. Unfortunately I don't have a description of the relisted item that sold on EBay. But I hardly think that JO was trying to "scam" someone by putting the wrong description on a $200 jersey of a player that has played in 1 NFL game. I still think that buyers need to do their homework...if the jersey that you're thinking of buying, isn't even the same color as what was worn in that game, then maybe you should rethink your purchase. Perhaps speak to someone about it before you buy?

I'm sure you remember last year when Desean Jackson signed the wrong game and dates on the wrong jerseys? Even the guy who wore the jerseys didn't know what games they came from. He signed a white jersey from a game in which they wore green, and vice versa. People make errors.

[nycpropain]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

Finally, someone from the other side of the fence. It's great to have you here, it's lonely on this end!! I have been reading this entire thread, and I'm starting to lose sight of reality. I have also read somewhere in here that someone is now skeptical of photomatches, because they think that JO is now using photomatching sites to doctor jerseys???

I mean seriously...do some of you think that JO Sports Co receives boxes of game issued jerseys, and then proceeds to have a team of runners wear them to get them sweaty and smelly? And then have a group of people put on those same jerseys to go play football in the backyard, to give them ball marks, hit marks, grass, mud, and turf stains? Then once the game is over, everyone takes their "fabricated" game issued jerseys to a group of seamstresses who manufacture team repairs, and also add any further customizations for each specific player on the roster?

Clearly I'm being cynical...but do some of you really think that 100% of what is sold on the JO Sports website is fake?? And do you think that every equipment manager from each NFL team they have a contract with is in on the scam too? Seems like a hell of a lot of work in order to turn some game issued jerseys into game worn, no???

And does anyone even know the details of this case? Can anyone speak intelligently as to JO's involvment in this case? All that I have seen are people making insane accusations about how everything JO sells is fake, and that people don't put any faith in team LOA/COA's, or photomatches.

Let's use this example: Person A knows someone at a Card Company (Person C) who wants to buy a game worn jeresey in order to cut into pieces. Person B knows how to get in touch with Person C at the Card Company. Person A uses Person B as a middle man, and Person C at the Card Company gets what they think is a game worn jersey, cut it up into pieces and put into baseball cards. The jersey coming from Person A was a retail or game issued jersey. Person C thought it was game used. Person C cuts the jersey into pieces and sells is as a game worn insert. This scenario is entirely possible...but it doesn't seem to me like everything person B now touches should be considered fake, does it?

Just a few thoughts...now let the abuse begin!!!

Thats great YOU feel like that. But thankfully most wont. Once a scam artist always a scam artist. How many federal investigations and prosecutions does one need before opening a few eyes? I dont care if 99% of their items where real if they knowingly sold the 1%.

[SaintsGeaux]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

If it was sold again as "game worn", after it was pointed out that a mistake was made, then yes, that is damning. I agree with you. Unfortunately I don't have a description of the relisted item that sold on EBay. But I hardly think that JO was trying to "scam" someone by putting the wrong description on a $200 jersey of a player that has played in 1 NFL game. I still think that buyers need to do their homework...if the jersey that you're thinking of buying, isn't even the same color as what was worn in that game, then maybe you should rethink your purchase. Perhaps speak to someone about it before you buy?

I'm sure you remember last year when Desean Jackson signed the wrong game and dates on the wrong jerseys? Even the guy who wore the jerseys didn't know what games they came from. He signed a white jersey from a game in which they wore green, and vice versa. People make errors.

There isn't much hope for you. You see mistakes and errors and singular occurrences.

This isn't murder where one event is the crime. This is fraud we are talking about. The FBI generally shows a wanton pattern of criminal intent, do you understand that? A pattern showing more than one occurence. They get enough to move forward and prove their case. They know the difference between honest mistakes and criminal intent. If they went through 5 years of transactions it would be extremely costly and labor intensive.

[slam]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

How about this posting involving JO Sports. I always thought this was strange.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=44542

[solarlottry]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

The entire situation sucks for all parties involved. It is a disaster for JO PR-wise all well as with regards to their partnerships. His livelihood and that of his employees and their families are in the process of being utterly destroyed.

It is a nightmare for US-the collector as we have spent thousands of $$$$ on what we believe are gamers, only to have seeds of doubt planted. With this hobby any degree of doubt or uncertainty can destroy a jersey, a dealer or a collection.

What i dont understand is why JO would knowingly create "fake gamers" when they have all the authentic gamers they can handle? With NFL teams sending them 99% of their GU jerseys and these shirts being sold for a profit, why screw it up? Obviously greed is an answer but it seems foolhardy to throw away years of hard work establishing JOsportsCO, only to lose it all over fakes and a few more $$$.

With regards to GU jerseys that were part of the team deals that were sold as GU but appeared GI, I am sure that this happens as teams have multiple shirts of each player. With players coming and going things can get mixed up or maybe the player wore it for one play or dressed but didnt play? The shirt would look new then but would be game used. Again it boils down to doing your own research and buying what YOU are confident in, no matter what the seller tells you it is.

I lost out on a beautiful 1994 Steve Young gamer because I didnt do enough homework, was too suspicious and sent it back. Well a few days later I found an exact photo-match but the shirt had been sold. I eventually found out that Panini had bought it and cut it up. Do your own research and buy what feels right and you most probably will not be disappointed.

When I bought my Bengals TO from JO it was labeled as "2010 season" but thru GUU we have photo-matched it to TO's 150th and 151st TD catches, made on MNF vs the Steelers. Would it not have benefited JO to have known this prior to selling it? The price difference between a "2010 season" vs "150th career TD MNF" would be huge. JO could have done the photo-match and figured this out but we did and got a great shirt for a great price. So it can go both ways.

I am sure everything will shake out as time passes. JO may not make it out of this intact but the GU hobby will go on, hopefully in a more honest and open forum. There will always be scoundrels out there as long as money is to be made but maybe this FBI indictment will make people think twice before trying to sell fakes.

Always buying 49ers gamers and any 1994 49er gamer!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

I am sure everything will shake out in the end

[jhunt28]

Re: 6 charged with fraud

There isn't much hope for you. You see mistakes and errors and singular occurrences.

This isn't murder where one event is the crime. This is fraud we are talking about. The FBI generally shows a wanton pattern of criminal intent, do you understand that? A pattern showing more than one occurence. They get enough to move forward and prove their case. They know the difference between honest mistakes and criminal intent. If they went through 5 years of transactions it would be extremely costly and labor intensive.

You are right again...there is no hope for me. Now onto the subject at hand...do you really think JO bought game issued jerseys, for lets say $150 each, and sold them as "misrepresented game worn jerseys" for $175? Who has ever heard of this Butler guy??? You would have to do this over 5,000 times in order to make any money...!! Again, NO ONE has any facts in this case. Show me facts...Show me why JO was named, WHEN, and in WHAT context. That's all. Showing me that a jersey of a player who didn't even play one full game in the NFL was mistakenly posted as "game worn", instead of "game issued" is nonsense.