Albert Pujols to the Angels

[xpress34]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Fans always act like these players should play for less than their value because
they make millions and if it weren't for the fans..blah blah blah

As Andrew noted Pujols has been one of the most underpaid players for
years. Good for him for getting his worth and in my opinion, and then
some to make up for those underpaid years!

And for those always complaining about the plight of their small market
teams...be thankful for revenue sharing or else there probably wouldn't
even be a team in your small market city. In my opinion MLB is watered down
with all these teams and would be better off without some of these teams anyways...
Pujols Angels products selling out means money for everyone!

I just hope the Cards fans appreciate Pujols for what he did.

Goh -

1st, you know I respect you so I'm sure you will take this in the vein it is intended...

As far as Gingi's comments (and Gingi - you know I respect you too!) - I will tell you without a doubt - strike or not -the fans DO pay the players salaries. Why do ticket prices go up? To pay for larger payrolls. Why do food prices go up? To pay for larger salaries. Even after LOSING seasons ticket prices go up.

IF the fans of the game could give up their fix (going to the games - buying gear, etc) in unison for even one day - it would make a HUGE dent in the owner's pockets. And if you think the owner's are paying the players out of their 'love for the game', you have another think coming.

The way the system is set up now - in pretty much any sport - is to take as much from the fans as possible and give as little as is possible back. The FANS pay for the stadiums (taxes) yet the OWNERS collect all the revenue? When is the last time an OWNER invested his OWN money into building a new stadium? They would rather threaten moving the team than putting their own money out there... why? Because the FANS will pay it. As fans, do we really get anything back from our investment in the game? Do the owners and players share any profits from a good season by cutting ticket prices, etc? NO - instead they RAISE the prices again.

If the fans only watched the games on TV, the salaries would have to fall as the TV revenues don't cover all the payroll and such...

Speaking of Stadiums - sorry for the segue - The Marlins, Jeffrey L and many Politicos in Miami might be in some hot water with the SEC depending on their findings. How did the bonds (that are tax payer backed) to build the stadium get approved without a vote of the people to approve those bonds and tax increases? Part of the SEC investigation includes looking into what Politicos Jeffrey L and the Marlins contributed to during the most recent elections before the bonds were miraculously approved.

Now, as far as the small market teams - I have to disagree with you Goh. If teams start getting redacted (to beef it back up - you called it watered down) I believe it would get boring real quick when there are only so many teams to watch. Also, as Moneyball has shown, you would also miss out on the potential opportunity for many players to ever even get signed - much less get a shot at the majors. Hell, Pujols wasn't drafted until the 13th round and was the 18th pick in that round to boot.

If you redacted clubs, the draft would shrink as well and guys like Pujols and others might not ever get the chance to show what they have in the Minors - much less on the big stage.

As far as my issue with Pujols - don't claim to want to be with a team forever AND say it's not about the money - and then run for the no-trade contract (which is a non issue anyway as Pujols is a 10-5 guy) with crap tons of money and act like the Cardinals beat you down to take what they offered in the past and act spurned they didn't offer more this time.

He's on the backside of his career and St Louis made him the face of the franchise his second year after winning the ROY which gave him every opportunity to get his charity going (I applaud him for that) as well as market himself as THE guy - not just in St Louis, but a large portion of the mid-west.

As far as the claims of others that we would all leave for the money - I wouldn't LIE about it. Also, I can't say I would absolutely leave for it - some things at my current job are intangibles that I might not get in another position, regardless of the money involved.

And to Frik - Tulo is a guy who told the Rockies and Denver that this is where he wanted to be and signed his deal last year - locking him up until 2020 - at an avg of $15m a year. That contract could be a steal for the Rox AND Tulo is arguably THE guy on the Rockies and he is the ONLY one who stops regularly out back and signs for all the fans. I heard Pujols quit doing that a long time ago and when the Cards have been here in Denver, he hasn't exactly been 'warm' to the fans - even the ones that come from St Louis to watch the team.

Sorry for the rant, but I have a hard time feeling all warm and fuzzy for a guy that says one thing in public and then does another.

I am just wondering if he will even give the Cardinal fans the courtesy of a farewell speech via TV, the Internet or whatever. I do believe he owes the fans that much at lest for all of their support.

[frikativ54]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

I am just wondering if he will even give the Cardinal fans the courtesy of a farewell speech via TV, the Internet or whatever. I do believe he owes the fans that much at lest for all of their support.

Here's what some in St. Louis have to say about Pujols:



I hope Pujols gets what he deserves for his act in St. Louis at the WS parade.

[worldchamps]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

In 2011
Rangers were 40-17 vs AL West

56-49 vs everyone else

2013 we add the Astros to the division, so even more wins but so do the angels, oh well. Just hoping this means more chances of getting Pujols autographs.

[gnishiyama]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Xpress
You may have misinterpreted when I said

Fans always act like these players should play for less than their value because
they make millions and if it weren't for the fans..blah blah blah

that I don't realize we pay the players' salaries. Of course I do. The thing is
I don't care. When prices go up, I spend less or go to less games. I make
adjustments in my life rather than complaining. (not saying you are)
Was I particularly happy that a small portion of my tax dollars went towards
the new Yankee Stadium? Of course not. However all was forgotten when
I first visited the new stadium and saw how great it was! I can give
you a million other things I hate seeing my hard earned tax money
being spent on than to building a new stadium. Corruption, War...

Bottom line is sports brings to my life a lot of enjoyment and I don't focus
on things that I can't control like prices and player salaries. If you want to
go and make a stand against the owners go ahead, it's not for me.

Back to Pujols; good for him that he ultimately did what he thought was
best for him no matter the reason. This is a business and it was his decision
to make. He doesn't owe anything except thanking the Cards fan for their
support through the years, which I expect him to do, just as Cards fan
should be thankful they got to witness 11 (prime) years of arguably the
best hitter in history.

As Jeff said the Cardinals will be just fine without him. Even as a Yankees
fan I see that team has something special and they have passionate fans
to go along with it.

I hope Pujols gets what he deserves for his act in St. Louis at the WS parade.

Frikativ: Why do you always sound so bitter in your posts? What exactly
does Pujols deserve for helping his team win another WS title?

Anyway happy holidays guys. Can't wait for baseball to start!

[gameused]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Great signing for the Angels. I had a feeling that when Tony Larussa retired Pujols would sign elsewhere and with an American league team, he can stiil play first base and DH or just DH, which in the long run will prolong his career.

Can't wait to see him play in person on the West coast.

Thanks,
Bobby

[geoff]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

I was shocked and when I thought about it I think its a good move so he can get that full no trade clause and DH sometimes and 5 or 6 years from now be a DH mostly.

[vonbrandingo]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Welcome to California, Albert! I think you'll enjoy the weather compared to MO. Bring your winter coat though, you'll need it batting in your new lineup.

[emann]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

As fans, do we really get anything back from our investment in the game?

We get entertainment.

Same thing we get from watching a movie starring people who are paid millions of dollars to pretend they're somebody else for two hours. It isn't fair in terms of salaries, but that is one of the top things people spend money on, so their income reflects that.

Sports has the added element of competition for fans of a certain area and emotional history attached to it for most. So, it becomes more than entertainment...

I was a lifelong baseball fan, but in 1994, I was appalled by the strike killing the World Series. I felt the players were beyond greedy, the owners were corrupt and the game was ruined. I didn't watch baseball AT ALL again until about 2003 (and didn't set foot in a park again until 2009). For that entire time, they lost my yearly expense of a few hundred dollars in tickets, merch sales, food sales, etc. It didn't kill the game, but I didn't feel I wanted to support this system anymore. I was getting nothing in return except anger and frustration.

What happened though was after that I came back to baseball, I enjoy for what it's worth as entertainment and am a bigger fan than I was before. It's a great way to escape the politics and issues of "normal" life. I look at things like the Pujols contract and laugh at how out of touch and absurd this stuff is... I'm surprised more things like this don't show up:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/974034-james-loney-dodgers-star-crashes-maserati-and-goes-completely-crazy

Not to sound too preachy, but I highly recommend taking time away from sports if the enjoyment factor gets lost. It's not supposed to be work for fans, it's supposed to be an escape from the grind. That's why they pay the guy who hits the little ball with a stick the big dollars, it's HIS problem if he misses it, not mine (I just get to boo him).

[xpress34]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

We get entertainment.

Same thing we get from watching a movie starring people who are paid millions of dollars to pretend they're somebody else for two hours. It isn't fair in terms of salaries, but that is one of the top things people spend money on, so their income reflects that.

e -

I've heard that argument before. My only issue with it - my tax dollars aren't paying for the movie theater where I go to watch the movies while the movie theater keeps all the profits.

If the people in a city pay higher taxes to build a stadium for a team, I feel the city and it's people should benefit more than just the tax revenue from ticket/food/concessions sales. Just my .02.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

This is a conglomeration of info I dug up on the Cardinals owners. Combined ownership group is worth reportedly over $5 billion and that could be low.

The Dewitt's are shrewd 'businesspeople'. When their group bought the Cardinals one of the aspects they liked in the deal was all the real estate holdings that came along with the team purchase and the first order of business would be a real estate 'flip' that would almost give them the franchise + the stadium for FREE. The owners bought the team in 1995 for $150 million. The purchase price included the stadium (Old Busch), adjacent parking garages and various parcels of downtown land. The parking garages and some of the land were sold for $101 million, giving them a baseball team at a net cost of $49 million. They have since built the new stadium for approximately $350 million of which they received millions in tax incentive and millions in publicly funded infrastructure cost. The true price of what the Cardinals owners put into the new stadium is unknown and after the 2013 season it appears they have clear ownership of the stadium with only privately held obligations.

The Dewitt's and partners accumulated much of their wealth in a bank flip. In a Sept. 3, 2004 St. Louis Post-Dispatch interview with Andrew Baur, it was said that Baur and Dewitt's family and other team owners were stockholders in Mississippi Valley Bancshares, which owned Southwest Bank in St. Louis. The bank was bought for $9.4 million in 1984 and was sold a few years ago for $502 million. In addition to Baur, Cardinal owners Fred Hanser and Donna DeWitt Lambert (sister of William DeWitt) were large stockholders in the company.

Despite their wealth, the Cardinals' owners are not known for being generous. In 1997, the Cardinals fired the stadium's janitorial team after they refused to accept a wage cut. The Cardinals' management wanted to cut their pay from $9.70 an hour to $6.90 an hour. Some of the janitors worked for the Cardinals for more than 20 years. Eventually, an agreement was reached with the workers' union. This is how the agreement was reported in the April 20, 1997 edition of the Post:

"The new agreement means the workers with the most seniority will take a pay cut of 50 cents an hour while all union members will lose health benefits they had under the previous contract."

The Cardinals seem to be crying poor and the anger is pointed towards Pujols. Its just good to know a little bit of the other side of the story about Dewitt and partners.

[frikativ54]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

The Cardinals seem to be crying poor and the anger is pointed towards Pujols. Its just good to know a little bit of the other side of the story about Dewitt and partners.

Thank you for all this information. I don't have that much background on the Cardinals owners, but it is definitely food for thought. I appreciate your posting it, because it gives me another perspective.

-Frik

[allstarsplus]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Thank you for all this information. I don't have that much background on the Cardinals owners, but it is definitely food for thought. I appreciate your posting it, because it gives me another perspective.

-Frik

You are welcome. I am usually one that will side with ownership and bash the player for being greedy. I just think there is way more behind the scenes in this case. Some have said it is like LeBron and I really don't think it is the same. We will probably never know the real truth as this will take some time to see what leaks out.

I commend Albert for signing a contract years ago with the Cardinals and playing out the terms of the contract. He never publicly threatened or said he would hold out on his 8 year deal that paid him $111 mill. In his case, he far exceeded in relative value what he was being paid (approx $13.8 million per season).

I watched on ESPN a woman burning her Pujols jersey----there is a lot of anger. Yes, Albert left and could have stayed for less money and it is so much money that he couldn't spend it all in his lifetime which is why I don't think it is all about the money.

[Birdbats]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

It's funny how people can look at the same numbers and come up with different interpretations. For example, while the Cardinals ownership group might be worth $5 billion, you need to know there are many members of that ownership group (maybe 15?). Some of those members have massive assets, but only a small slice of the team. So, for example, if someone has $500M in assets but owns 2% of the team, that person's assets are pretty much irrelevant to the question of what the team can afford.

Also, the owners anted up a much larger percentage of the stadium cost than is typical for most team owners. I believe something like $45 million came from the public and the other $320 came from the team and bonds to be paid by the team over a couple decades. Only the SF Giants' stadium had a larger percentage of private financing than Busch.

Are the Cards' owners rich? Absolutely. Did they make a great purchase, flip properties and get an even better deal? Oh, yeah. Are they stingy? That's debatable. Are they crying poor? Absolutely not.

I think the ownership would have happily made Pujols the highest paid player in baseball (AAV) if he'd accepted a 5-6 year contract (at maybe $28-30M/yr). But, when Albert's agent demanded 10 years, the team seems to have decided (wisely, in my opinion) that was a poor investment, long term. I think that was a solid business decision and a smart baseball decision -- regardless of how much money the team's owners have on paper.

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

It amazes me how Cardinal fans on TV and the internet are calling him greedy.
He played for half his worth and never complained. The owners enjoyed the best player in baseball for a bargain price.
In a world of players holding teams hostage Pujols was a breath of fresh air. He signed a contract and he honored it.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Albert Pujols to the Angels

Are the Cards' owners rich? Absolutely. Did they make a great purchase, flip properties and get an even better deal? Oh, yeah. Are they stingy? That's debatable. Are they crying poor? Absolutely not.

I think the ownership would have happily made Pujols the highest paid player in baseball (AAV) if he'd accepted a 5-6 year contract (at maybe $28-30M/yr). But, when Albert's agent demanded 10 years, the team seems to have decided (wisely, in my opinion) that was a poor investment, long term. I think that was a solid business decision and a smart baseball decision -- regardless of how much money the team's owners have on paper.

Jeff, you and I shared some good times in St. Louis and I known your passion for the team and it is good to hear your opinion.

The crying poor comment was how they portrayed their team and city as a smaller market and their constraints on spending. I dont buy it. The market is what you create. ST Louis attendance is robust, advertising is evident, TV rights are owned by the team.

Their basis in the team vs it's market value makes their ownership a tremendous net value in the $100's of millions! It's like buying a home that you knew the land could be subdivided and even though you paid $1.5 million you sold the adjoining lot for $1 million so you have $500,000 investment into it. Ten years later you tear the home down and rebuild it. The market values have skyrocketed and now it is worth $7 million against a total investment of $4. You rent the home out now and on top of the positive cash flow the mortgage and all debt will be paid off in 7 years.