PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

P.S. - don't forget that based on a 24 hour (around the clock) work cycle, the numbers they give break down to almost 4,000 items certified a day.

If it's only 8 hour days (even 7 days a week), that jumps that total to close to 12,000 items a day that they are claiming they are certifying.

I'm sorry if the hard numbers don't agree with many members love of the authenticators, but math is a PURE science and these numbers don't jive.

I'll even give you this scenario:

Let's presume they have 1,000 employees (which I'm pretty certain is an absurd #). 1,000 employees x 20 seconds is 20,000 seconds / 60 seconds is 333.3 minutes / 60 minutes is roughly 5.5 hours per item (on a 24 hour clock/7 days a week). But on an 8 hour clock (even staying with 7 days a week) that drops to about 1 hr 45 minutes per item.

That wouldn't be a bad number, but when you take out all the little things - again, receiving/unpacking, labeling, typing cert, repacking/shipping, entering into database, etc I would imagine that eats up a good chunk of that time.

If you and others want to continue to believe that they absolutely give EVERY item EVERY ounce of time and consideration that they deserve, I believe you are sorely mistaken.

And to David - nothing against you, but having grown up in Dallas during Beckett's rise in the 80's, I have my issues with them as well. The only one I will discuss here is the fact that since they joined the Graded Card Market - and being they are THE Price Guide in the hobby - isn't it a bit of a Conflict of Interest to Price their OWN Graded Cards higher than anyone else's? If you wnat to PM David I'd be glad to tell you about some things that took place in the DFW area 'back in the day'.

All the best -

Smitty

[David]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

I wasn't criticizing anyone, though was commenting on the numbers.

I've heard all the conflict of interest complains against all the places. MEARS auctions, PSA/DNA used to own auction houses, what you said about Beckett. I generally judge things by the quality of the final product. No conflict of interest and incompetence can go hand in hand sometimes.

For good or bad, places like PSA or Beckett exist to make money. I'm not justifying or excusing anything, just saying.

[trsent]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

P.S. - don't forget that based on a 24 hour (around the clock) work cycle, the numbers they give break down to almost 4,000 items certified a day.

If it's only 8 hour days (even 7 days a week), that jumps that total to close to 12,000 items a day that they are claiming they are certifying.

I'm sorry if the hard numbers don't agree with many members love of the authenticators, but math is a PURE science and these numbers don't jive.

I'll even give you this scenario:

Let's presume they have 1,000 employees (which I'm pretty certain is an absurd #). 1,000 employees x 20 seconds is 20,000 seconds / 60 seconds is 333.3 minutes / 60 minutes is roughly 5.5 hours per item (on a 24 hour clock/7 days a week). But on an 8 hour clock (even staying with 7 days a week) that drops to about 1 hr 45 minutes per item.

That wouldn't be a bad number, but when you take out all the little things - again, receiving/unpacking, labeling, typing cert, repacking/shipping, entering into database, etc I would imagine that eats up a good chunk of that time.

If you and others want to continue to believe that they absolutely give EVERY item EVERY ounce of time and consideration that they deserve, I believe you are sorely mistaken.

And to David - nothing against you, but having grown up in Dallas during Beckett's rise in the 80's, I have my issues with them as well. The only one I will discuss here is the fact that since they joined the Graded Card Market - and being they are THE Price Guide in the hobby - isn't it a bit of a Conflict of Interest to Price their OWN Graded Cards higher than anyone else's? If you wnat to PM David I'd be glad to tell you about some things that took place in the DFW area 'back in the day'.

All the best -

Smitty

In other news, have forum rules changed where you can put your eBay seller name in your signature? I was told it is against the rules to promote your outside business on this discussion forum.

By the way, I try to read what you wrote, but it just gets too confusing. You trying to audit PSA/DNA's breakdown of what they have authenticated in over ten years or more, and you take everything literally. Their track record is by far the best in the business and for some reason you keep looking for issues that you can only speculate on.

I start to think you are confusing figures from all of Collector Universe's records - They include PSA/DNA, PSA, PCGS, PCGS Currency, PSA Bats and I'm sure I'm missing something.

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

In other news, have forum rules changed where you can put your eBay seller name in your signature? I was told it is against the rules to promote your outside business on this discussion forum.

By the way, I try to read what you wrote, but it just gets too confusing. You trying to audit PSA/DNA's breakdown of what they have authenticated in over ten years or more, and you take everything literally. Their track record is by far the best in the business and for some reason you keep looking for issues that you can only speculate on.

I start to think you are confusing figures from all of Collector Universe's records - They include PSA/DNA, PSA, PCGS, PCGS Currency, PSA Bats and I'm sure I'm missing something.

You mean like your tag that has been on forever promoting AM Sports Marketing? What a hypocritical statement.

And for the record, my eBay ID has been in my signature since the 1st day I was on GUU and I've seen many other members with their eBay IDs listed as well.

I take everything 'literally'? Of course I do when it comes to an AUTHENTICATOR. If they are going to post their numbers - which they DO - how can I NOT take them literally? If you don't take them and their authentications literally, then why are you trying to defend them against my comments.

And I'm not looking for issues, but when I saw that counter sitting at that kind of number? 19 million + items is a staggering amount of items to have been handled. Here's some more 'food for thought' to highlight just how staggering those numbers are:

If you decided to count to 1 million - and IF you could say each number in 1 second (which becomes impossible once you start getting into triple and quadruple digit numbers anyway) and you didn't stop, it would take you 11.5 DAYS (without sleeping, eating, etc to get there). There was a study done back in the 80's or 90's and they had a computer do exactly that - count to 1 million - saying each number out loud. Due to the longer numbers and the time it took to say each one, it took the computer almost 6 months - going 24 hours a day to get to 1 million.

Speculate? I think not. Too many documented cases of them getting it wrong or 'rubber stamping' items for big customers. And if you're going to say something like 'They should take care of bigger customer's' - don't. That is when the door opens for bigger customer's to float through questionable items. Dont think big customer's might do that? See the JO Sports debacle et al (that's Latin for 'and others' so you can keep up).

And AGAIN (because you obviously CAN'T read), I am NOT confusing anything. I am using a number that is CLEARLY posted on their HOME PAGE, and I stated (a few times actually since the first time I posted about this) that I am certain those numbers include Card Grading, Coins, etc., but as usual you only read what you want Joel.

I'm certain you defend them because you are probably a good customer of theirs and you don't want to say anything against them.

Everything I have laid out - AGAIN - is from numbers taken from THEIR page, not some 3rd party source, and if if 's not correct, then they can come here and defend themselves or correct the numbers.

You can keep trying to shoot holes in the arguments I've made, but the bottom line is that the ONLY number I have speculated on is how many employees they have. I revisited their site and on their 'experts' page, they list 22 people.

That got me to do more research which actually shoots holes in YOUR arguments, because I went the Collector's Universe page and when I selected the home page for PCGS (the Coin grading division), their home page and info states they have been around since 1985 and have certified over 24,000,000 coins. That alone points to the PSA, PSA/DNA page's number of over 19,000,000 items certified as having ONLY to do with the sports side of the business.

I'll just leave it at that.

And for what it's worth, I'm sorry that the written word, facts extrapolated (that means 'taken from') their own site and simple math is too confusing for you to follow.

But it doesn't matter what I say. You have your opinions - and you're welcome to them. But I have mine as well and if you don't like me expressing them, well that's just too bad.

Best wishes -

Smitty

[jppopma]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Smitty, Are you questioning the number of items they really have authenticated or thinking that they just slap stickers on items without doing very much research?

As for numbers, businesses and people have long been using estimates and not keeping track of every single action. Does anyone think that someone physically counted every person at the million man march? Back in the 80's when McDonald's had the running tally on number of people served, was that an exact and precise number based on a customer tally computer somewhere?

Regarding the original post, it looks like PSA/DNA likely wrote a COA and confirmed a photomatch that was provided by the owner.

[trsent]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Smitty, Are you questioning the number of items they really have authenticated or thinking that they just slap stickers on items without doing very much research?

As for numbers, businesses and people have long been using estimates and not keeping track of every single action. Does anyone think that someone physically counted every person at the million man march? Back in the 80's when McDonald's had the running tally on number of people served, was that an exact and precise number based on a customer tally computer somewhere?

Regarding the original post, it looks like PSA/DNA likely wrote a COA and confirmed a photomatch that was provided by the owner.

I'll stick to the original discussion and not get sidetracked by those looking to dispute something that has nothing to do with the original topic.

I do not believe PSA/DNA could have wrote a COA for an autograph, as I do not see or read about an autograph in the description. I did email PSA/DNA asking about this letter/service and they promised me a reply after the weekend.

I have a hunch it was a service they experimented with for a short time. It would have been nice for Grey Flannel to have posted a copy of this letter for us all to see and examine.

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Smitty, Are you questioning the number of items they really have authenticated or thinking that they just slap stickers on items without doing very much research?

As for numbers, businesses and people have long been using estimates and not keeping track of every single action. Does anyone think that someone physically counted every person at the million man march? Back in the 80's when McDonald's had the running tally on number of people served, was that an exact and precise number based on a customer tally computer somewhere?

Regarding the original post, it looks like PSA/DNA likely wrote a COA and confirmed a photomatch that was provided by the owner.

I'm simply stating that the number of items that they claim to have 'certified' (i.e. Auto Authentication, Card Grading, In the Presence, etc) is pretty astronomical over a 14 year period.

As for the numbers, we're not talking about McDonald's and their 1,000's of locations and 'generalizations' over 'over a million served', or 'over a billion served', etc. We're talking about a company that better be tracking 'every single action' when they tout their 'unique certification number assigned and stored in our database'. If they're not tracking every single action, then why are they in the authentication business? And - again - it is THEIR counter on their site that has the numbers tallied down to single digits, NOT a 'general statement' such as 'over 19 million items certified'.

I never argued that they didn't write a COA or confirm a Photo Match to a photo provided by the submitter of the item. I simply stated when the OP asked if PSA/DNA was going to start doing a 'Photo Match' service that I'm sure they would do the same thing they do with autographs. If it's inconclusive, I'm certain they will still keep your money and give you their apologies for not being able to authenticate. That bore the question as to how many items they state they have certified and how much time per item does an average authentication get (using the ENTIRE number of certified items as a base). I'm certain some (In the Presence for example) take 10 seconds or so each (NOT including cataloging the Cert # or writing the cert) to do as opposed to ones that need lots of research.

If they get into actually doing 'Photo Matching' - not comparing to a photo already supplied, but actually having to do research - how much time will they put into each one before calling it inconclusive?

I'm sorry if my take on the 'system' grinds some people the wrong way, but after people were 'betrayed' over the years by outfits like J.O. and the other defendants, finding out much of the Barry Halper collection was either fake or obtained by ill gotten means, etc., I don't take anyone or any company in this industry at face value.

JSA (a founder of PSA/DNA , Collector's Universe) who helped create their system has made plenty of mistakes too - the biggest of which (and which also underlines the 'easy to identify auto statement' etc as being very naive) was his handling of the Certification of Jack Johnson's Autograph on his boxing card. SIMPLE research verifies the card was produced two years AFTER Johnson had DIED. Yet they certified it. Do you really believe the same types of oversights don't happen at PSA/DNA and other authenticators?

I'm really not trying to 'stir the hornets nest' as they say, but I also don't like watching collector's 'follow the leader' like Lemmings to the cliff edge.

As I said to Joel - and everyone else - you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that.

I'm also entitled to mine and am simply laying out the facts that are available for each and every member to use as they will.

This is no different than when members have varying opinions on whether certain items presented are authentic or not. Everyone states their opinions and observations and everyone makes their own conclusions based on that information.

All the best -

Smitty

[trsent]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

I'm simply stating that the number of items that they claim to have 'certified' (i.e. Auto Authentication, Card Grading, In the Presence, etc) is pretty astronomical over a 14 year period.

As for the numbers, we're not talking about McDonald's and their 1,000's of locations and 'generalizations' over 'over a million served', or 'over a billion served', etc. We're talking about a company that better be tracking 'every single action' when they tout their 'unique certification number assigned and stored in our database'. If they're not tracking every single action, then why are they in the authentication business? And - again - it is THEIR counter on their site that has the numbers tallied down to single digits, NOT a 'general statement' such as 'over 19 million items certified'.

I never argued that they didn't write a COA or confirm a Photo Match to a photo provided by the submitter of the item. I simply stated when the OP asked if PSA/DNA was going to start doing a 'Photo Match' service that I'm sure they would do the same thing they do with autographs. If it's inconclusive, I'm certain they will still keep your money and give you their apologies for not being able to authenticate. That bore the question as to how many items they state they have certified and how much time per item does an average authentication get (using the ENTIRE number of certified items as a base). I'm certain some (In the Presence for example) take 10 seconds or so each (NOT including cataloging the Cert # or writing the cert) to do as opposed to ones that need lots of research.

If they get into actually doing 'Photo Matching' - not comparing to a photo already supplied, but actually having to do research - how much time will they put into each one before calling it inconclusive?

I'm sorry if my take on the 'system' grinds some people the wrong way, but after people were 'betrayed' over the years by outfits like J.O. and the other defendants, finding out much of the Barry Halper collection was either fake or obtained by ill gotten means, etc., I don't take anyone or any company in this industry at face value.

JSA (a founder of PSA/DNA , Collector's Universe) who helped create their system has made plenty of mistakes too - the biggest of which (and which also underlines the 'easy to identify auto statement' etc as being very naive) was his handling of the Certification of Jack Johnson's Autograph on his boxing card. SIMPLE research verifies the card was produced two years AFTER Johnson had DIED. Yet they certified it. Do you really believe the same types of oversights don't happen at PSA/DNA and other authenticators?

I'm really not trying to 'stir the hornets nest' as they say, but I also don't like watching collector's 'follow the leader' like Lemmings to the cliff edge.

As I said to Joel - and everyone else - you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that.

I'm also entitled to mine and am simply laying out the facts that are available for each and every member to use as they will.

This is no different than when members have varying opinions on whether certain items presented are authentic or not. Everyone states their opinions and observations and everyone makes their own conclusions based on that information.

All the best -

Smitty

So you wrote all this because IF PSA/DNA starts a photo-match service you don't like if they do the research and keep your fee if they can't find a photo-match?

What did this have to do with the original topic?

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

I'll stick to the original discussion and not get sidetracked by those looking to dispute something that has nothing to do with the original topic.

Wow Joel! Again, the pot calling the kettle black.

My original post on this thread had everything to do with this post when cost vs time to have them photo match came into question.

I made a statement about how much time on avg is spent on an authentication and YOU - yes YOU Joel - asked if I knew 1st hand how much time was spent per authentication, so I explained how I arrived at the avg time.

You couldn't take the information as provided an make your own conclusions, YOU - again, YOU Joel - began questioning 'speculated' numbers, etc. so I explained and told you exactly where I got those numbers from their site.

I'm sorry that the factual information doesn't jive with what you want it to be, but the numbers are what the numbers are. They are not contrived or arbitrary - they are what the math works out to be no matter how you cut it.

And FWIW, after seeing that they have 22 experts who authenticate, I can give you a much more specific number as to the AVG amount of time spent on each certification (again, this is an AVG based on ALL of the certifications they claim) and I won't bore you or confuse you with the math.

The AVG time spent per certification based on THEIR hours (posted on the site if you dig around - they show 9-4 which is 7 hours a day M-F, but Customer Service is 7-5 M-F which is 10 hours so I'll use that since they do shows on weekends) and using 22 experts is:

Approximately 3 minutes per item.

And for the record - I have stated time and time again that this is an AVG number, not a cold hard fact, but you and others would rather try to twist it to sound like I am not taking all of the variables into acct which I have and which I have also documented in my other posts.

The point of all this goes DIRECTLY to the original post and the questions it raised - how much $ and how much TIME would it take.

The AVG amount of time per certification would DIRECTLY affect the amount of TIME available to do Photo Matches.

Oh, and BTW. talking about getting side tracked - you mean like people questioning other member's signatures? I noticed you dropped that fight real quick when I mentioned AM Sports Marketing in your signature.

If you want to criticize others Joel - start by looking in the mirror and examining your own issues first.

Have an awesome day!

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

So you wrote all this because IF PSA/DNA starts a photo-match service you don't like if they do the research and keep your fee if they can't find a photo-match?

What did this have to do with the original topic?

It has to do with HOW MUCH TIME would they actually dedicate to searching for a Photo Match or would each item be on a timer and if a photo isn't found (even though one may exist) will they simply call it inconclusive and move on.

I have no problem with them keeping a fee for their time - I have a problem when they claim to be the industry leader and they either authenticate an item that is later proven to be bad (by someone not in the authentication industry) or they deem an item to be 'inconclusive' simply because they haven't seen one before and they refuse to check any 'outside' sources.

So it has everything to do with the OP when the question was raised on whether they offer or are going to offer photo-matching.

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

So you wrote all this because IF PSA/DNA starts a photo-match service you don't like if they do the research and keep your fee if they can't find a photo-match?

BTW - are you sure you don't work in Politics the way you like to casually take ONE line from a paragraph, take it out of context and then make a statement about it.

You're obviously trying to make a fight here Joel when you disregard and ignore everything else and just grab onto one thing and try to twist it to make it sound like something was said that wasn't. I stated a FACT in reference to how much TIME would be given before calling it inconclusive.

But then again, this is exactly how you have always done on here - trying to bully people and twist their words when they don't fall in line with your ideologies and crying foul when you feel slighted or that someone has 'broken the rules' (see the comments about business being promoted in signatures) when you are being a hypocrite because you have done or are already doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing.

Here's another example - you jumped on Dave M for having a tag line in his signature that you took offense to because of it's 'political' connotations and you invoked the 'Forum Rules' which (if you actually READ them) never mention Politics or Religion. I agree that I don't believe either have any place here, but they are NOT against the forum rules. Dave was kind enough to remove the line you found offensive. My guess is you will not be so kind when I say that I find your Profile pic offensive - a T-Shirt that says I 'Jewish/Hebrew' (The Star of David) the Colts. That's a Religious message/view. How is that any different than a Political message/view. I am an Independent both Politically and Religiously and would prefer not to have any ideologies - Political or Religious - thrust upon me by anyone.

If you want to be the forum police, become a moderator. BUT, make sure your own affairs are in order before you start jumping in on anybody else.

Have an awesome weekend.

[trsent]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Chill out - I will not read your three replies about your continued attacks against something you know nothing about but look for silly stats to try to make accusations. I will not be reading those three posts, you have way to much time on your hands, sir.

It's nothing personal, just if you don't know all the details, please don't try to confuse people. Pick up the phone and call their customer service if you have questions. Oh wait, that is a bad idea.

[xpress34]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Chill out - I will not read your three replies about your continued attacks against something you know nothing about but look for silly stats to try to make accusations. I will not be reading those three posts, you have way to much time on your hands, sir.

It's nothing personal, just if you don't know all the details, please don't try to confuse people. Pick up the phone and call their customer service if you have questions. Oh wait, that is a bad idea.

You have no idea what I do or don't know. And I have contacted their Customer Service before and they would not give me the information I requested.

And I know why you won't read the other three posts - it's because they call you out on your own BS Joel.

I'll leave it at that.

[trsent]

Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

You have no idea what I do or don't know. And I have contacted their Customer Service before and they would not give me the information I requested.

And I know why you won't read the other three posts - it's because they call you out on your own BS Joel.

I'll leave it at that.

Sorry if I misunderstood your believed knowledge of the situation.