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Koufax Jacket, AMI: All is not forgiven..
November 11 2005 at 8:47 PM Rick (Login encinorick)
I'm concerned about the Koufax GU Dodger jacket in the AMI auction. Yes, Howard, the AMI auction. I owned a Larry Sherry 1963 Dodger jacket that was dirty, funky, and tagged. This doesn't look anything like it. It isn't tagged and more importantly, the description says it may be manufactured by Tiernan. As far as I know, Tiernan, from Glendale, CA, only manufactured Lakers uniforms. Sounds fishy, but my hero is Koufax, so someone tell me I'm wrong.
AuthorReply
HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf)
KOUFAX JACKET IN AMI'S AUCTION-VERY STRANGE
November 11 2005, 9:47 PM
Rick-
I have owned a handful of this style of Dodgers jacket, and seen several in auctions over the last 20 years, and have serious concerns with the "Koufax" jacket you reference. Please note the following from the lot description, "There are no labels, leading one to deduce that the jacket was probably made by Goodman or Tiernan, suppliers who were known to custom fit players and not include labels on occasion."
I have owned a 1958 Johnny Podres, with a letter from him stating it was worn by him in 1958. It had a small Wilson tag in the collar, with a small white size tag to the right. Likewise, I have owned a mid 1960's Howie Reed that was manufactured by MacGregor and had tagging present. Koufax played from 1958-1966. Based upon the previous Dodgers jackets from this era that I have owned, and seen in other collections and auctions, I am not aware of the interior being void of tagging (unless it was intentionally removed). Likewise, the statement that the jackets were "custom fit" is new to me. Maybe if Koufax was planning to have a 3-piece suit made, he might have it custom fit. A jacket? PLEASE! Furthermore, what is the assumption that Tiernan manufactured this particular #32 jacket or Goodmans based on?
Goodmans supplied the Dodgers with their knit jerseys from 1972-1986 (Rawlings the roads in 72/73). I have NEVER seen a Koufax era jacket manufactured by Goodmans, and have no information to support the claim that Tiernan was manufacturing Dodgers jackets.
How can this jacket be definitively sold as Koufax's? No tags, no way to pinpoint a specific year, and furthermore, what size is it? 40? 48? There is no mention!
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net
Rick
(Login encinorick)
I'm with ya...Howard
November 11 2005, 9:55 PM
Howard, you are correct, it doesnt' seem right. Oh, how I'd wish otherwise. Best Regards.
Rick
(Login rickster2)
questions, always questions
November 13 2005, 12:53 PM
The lack of manufacturer tagging on a Dodger jacket is puzzling, to say the least, And no size tag as well? How about provenance? When you are lookimg at game-used equipment, such as jackets, gloves, hats, and the like, it is important to me to know where they came from. While provenance certainly can't make a bad item good, and lack of provenance doesn't mean the item isn't good, it can help substantiate a claim that an item did in fact at least have a chance of originating from the player. In an item like this one, with so many questions, i would hope they could establish some provenance for the jacket.
But additional questions I have regard the lettering on the jacket. I have only seen one example of a Dodger jacket where the capital "D" wasn't connected to the following "o", and that was a mid -50's jacket, and the letters were formed differently than the AMI jacket. I also believe 60's Dodgers jackets have different styling for "Dodgers" especially for the "g" and the "s".
And i won't hijack this thread, but as a Koufax collector, I also have several questions on the Grey Flannel Koufax helmet. Has anyone else checked it out? I plan on contacting Keith Vari on this one, and will hopefully have more on this later.
Rick
(Login encinorick)
Re: questions, always questions
November 13 2005, 9:53 PM
No you haven't, Greyflannel provides a very cursory LOA and I doubt it references a provenance. I remember seeing a similar batting helmet purported to be Don Drysdale a couple of Greyflannel auctions ago. Others here have commented on the difficulty of verifying caps, I assume that batting helmets are even more difficult, perhaps only identifiable if a number appears.
November 11 2005 at 8:47 PM Rick (Login encinorick)
I'm concerned about the Koufax GU Dodger jacket in the AMI auction. Yes, Howard, the AMI auction. I owned a Larry Sherry 1963 Dodger jacket that was dirty, funky, and tagged. This doesn't look anything like it. It isn't tagged and more importantly, the description says it may be manufactured by Tiernan. As far as I know, Tiernan, from Glendale, CA, only manufactured Lakers uniforms. Sounds fishy, but my hero is Koufax, so someone tell me I'm wrong.
AuthorReply
HOWARD WOLF
(Login hblakewolf)
KOUFAX JACKET IN AMI'S AUCTION-VERY STRANGE
November 11 2005, 9:47 PM
Rick-
I have owned a handful of this style of Dodgers jacket, and seen several in auctions over the last 20 years, and have serious concerns with the "Koufax" jacket you reference. Please note the following from the lot description, "There are no labels, leading one to deduce that the jacket was probably made by Goodman or Tiernan, suppliers who were known to custom fit players and not include labels on occasion."
I have owned a 1958 Johnny Podres, with a letter from him stating it was worn by him in 1958. It had a small Wilson tag in the collar, with a small white size tag to the right. Likewise, I have owned a mid 1960's Howie Reed that was manufactured by MacGregor and had tagging present. Koufax played from 1958-1966. Based upon the previous Dodgers jackets from this era that I have owned, and seen in other collections and auctions, I am not aware of the interior being void of tagging (unless it was intentionally removed). Likewise, the statement that the jackets were "custom fit" is new to me. Maybe if Koufax was planning to have a 3-piece suit made, he might have it custom fit. A jacket? PLEASE! Furthermore, what is the assumption that Tiernan manufactured this particular #32 jacket or Goodmans based on?
Goodmans supplied the Dodgers with their knit jerseys from 1972-1986 (Rawlings the roads in 72/73). I have NEVER seen a Koufax era jacket manufactured by Goodmans, and have no information to support the claim that Tiernan was manufacturing Dodgers jackets.
How can this jacket be definitively sold as Koufax's? No tags, no way to pinpoint a specific year, and furthermore, what size is it? 40? 48? There is no mention!
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net
Rick
(Login encinorick)
I'm with ya...Howard
November 11 2005, 9:55 PM
Howard, you are correct, it doesnt' seem right. Oh, how I'd wish otherwise. Best Regards.
Rick
(Login rickster2)
questions, always questions
November 13 2005, 12:53 PM
The lack of manufacturer tagging on a Dodger jacket is puzzling, to say the least, And no size tag as well? How about provenance? When you are lookimg at game-used equipment, such as jackets, gloves, hats, and the like, it is important to me to know where they came from. While provenance certainly can't make a bad item good, and lack of provenance doesn't mean the item isn't good, it can help substantiate a claim that an item did in fact at least have a chance of originating from the player. In an item like this one, with so many questions, i would hope they could establish some provenance for the jacket.
But additional questions I have regard the lettering on the jacket. I have only seen one example of a Dodger jacket where the capital "D" wasn't connected to the following "o", and that was a mid -50's jacket, and the letters were formed differently than the AMI jacket. I also believe 60's Dodgers jackets have different styling for "Dodgers" especially for the "g" and the "s".
And i won't hijack this thread, but as a Koufax collector, I also have several questions on the Grey Flannel Koufax helmet. Has anyone else checked it out? I plan on contacting Keith Vari on this one, and will hopefully have more on this later.
Rick
(Login encinorick)
Re: questions, always questions
November 13 2005, 9:53 PM
No you haven't, Greyflannel provides a very cursory LOA and I doubt it references a provenance. I remember seeing a similar batting helmet purported to be Don Drysdale a couple of Greyflannel auctions ago. Others here have commented on the difficulty of verifying caps, I assume that batting helmets are even more difficult, perhaps only identifiable if a number appears.