Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

[JimCaravello]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Rudy - I guess I am too idealistic......I expect everyone to treat me the way I treat them - with respect - class - dignity - honesty.....I expect better things from Steiner........................

[Yankwood]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Obviously they are starting to turn alot of people off. However, as The King of All Jammies wrote earlier, I believe, before too long, we will be the recipients of a sane and real market. If we have not sworn them off by then. Their closing auction prices are already starting to show this.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

I'll give you $10,000 for every person who will buy Murcer pants for $1500.............

Okay. I'll buy the Murcer pants for $1,500...as long as you send me the $10,000 first (just kidding). Seriously, I know what you mean Jim and I agree. We got a bit off topic in this thread and lost track of your original question about how Steiner thinks someone will be willing to pay $1,500 for an item they just established was too expensive at $250 the day before.

After giving it some more thought, here is another possible explanation. Maybe Steiner's marketing strategy is to periodically put items that are not moving at regular retail prices in auction to see if they get any action. If not, they return them to inventory and offer them back up at their regular retail prices so as not to denigrate the perceived value of all their other items. While that may have the potential to confound someone in your situation, they may feel dropping a a price on an item that is supposed to sell at "retail" (i.e., not in auction) is too big a price to pay to have others think they are in the business of dropping prices on their retail items (a point that Rudy has elaborated on at length).

Just a thought.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[JimCaravello]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Chris - I knew someone would take me up on the offer to buy the pants and ask me to send the $15,000 to them....but I didn't think it would be you!!

You bring up a very good point - but the price differential is so wide...but a very good point. I continue to be frustrated though over this one instance due to the price differerential. If the rep from Steiner had said $500, I wouldn't have even posted at all......if I was really that frustrated, I would walk away from the hobby - but that's not the case. I really posted originally to get some dialigue going and to be quite honest - hopefully thinking that some Steiner folks would read the post and maybe change some of their thinking. I have worked in may different industries in my short ( feels like long life ) and they are all the same......the memorabilia industry is no different. Like I said in an earlier post - I am not trying to criticize anyone - just trying to offer some suggestions. Life is too short and I am having too much fun in life and with this hobby to walk away bitter....Signed - game used bat freak and avid Yankees fan!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

chris,

you're saying that steiner uses auctions as de facto 'sales' in order to
1) move items they want to move while 2) preventing people from thinking they have sales, which they feel may "cheapen" the appearance of their regular priced goods?

i suppose it's possible. it sounds like a bizarre marketing theory though.
once people start seeing the prices realized in the auctions, they're going to come to conclusions on the 'real market value' of steiner's items because at an auction the prices realized are determined by the market and not steiner. people will start to think "hey if that Arod jersey didn't sell for 10k at auction then why would i ever pay 20k for one?". conversely, if steiner held a "sale" then the reduced prices would simply appear like steiner is intentionally lowering prices without alluding to the 'real market value' of the items. that is, at a sale if you wonder why that Arod jersey is only going for $2k, then steiner can say "we're having a christmas sale! ho ho ho!" instead of at an auction where they're forced to say "it's 2k because that's all anyone was willing to pay". sales look like the 'good will' of the merchant; auctions reveal the true market value.
if your theory is indeed what steiner is doing, then they've got an incredibly inept marketing department.

rudy.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

conversely, if steiner held a "sale" then the reduced prices would simply appear like steiner is intentionally lowering prices without alluding to the 'real market value' of the items. that is, at a sale if you wonder why that Arod jersey is only going for $2k, then steiner can say "we're having a christmas sale! ho ho ho!" instead of at an auction where they're forced to say "it's 2k because that's all anyone was willing to pay". sales look like the 'good will' of the merchant; auctions reveal the true market value.
if your theory is indeed what steiner is doing, then they've got an incredibly inept marketing department.

Hello Rudy-

I think your comments may assume that the people who buy the items at retail are also following the auctions. Whether or not that is true I do not know. However, I do think given Steiner's monopoly and cost structure they probably want to stay away from having a reputation for putting items on "Sale" in general. According to Steiner's response to Jim that "the $250 opening bid was a "Special" and now that the..."Special".... was over", it appears they may not see the opening bid of an auction as the equivalent of an ongoing "Sale". I know it seems similar but there can be perceived differences (maybe why they used the word "Special"?).

In any event, we are speculating on something that seems very irrational on the surface. While it is a fun exercise, rather than hypothesizing one of us should probably follow-up with Steiner directly and see what they have to say about their auction strategy.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Hi Yankwood,

I'll be happy to chime in.

First, let me say I have no detailed knowledge of the Yankees-Steiner deal. As I've stated many times in many discussions, I believe it is unfair to speculate without facts. So I won't.

What I can discuss, and what is important here, I believe, is the concept of how a sports memorabilia company can help work effectively with a team to improve the hobby, and offer collectors legitimate game-worn items at a fair price.

MeiGray's goals when dealing with the Texas Rangers are, as follows:

1) Ensure absolute authenticity for the game-worn and game-used items we sell.
2) Ensure that collectors get good value, i.e., prices are fair.
3) Satisfy the team's requirement for effective marketing, i.e, represent them professionally, treat their customers right, satisfy them financially.
4) Earn a fair profit for our company.

Exclusive deals are necessary, I believe, for any sports memorabilia company that cares about absolute authenticity. By security tagging, or inventory tagging, or otherwise taking great care and spending money to ensure absolute authenticity, MeiGray has always felt it adds value to the jerseys it sells because authenticity is 100%.

Without an exclusive, real doubt can exist within the hobby. An example:

We have a relationship with the Philadelphia Eagles, but it is not an exclusive one. Recently, several collectors questioned a 2004 Donovan McNabb jerseys that was on ebay from another dealer. We acquired one white McNabb jersey in 2004, directly from the Eagles. We photo-matched the white jersey to the six consecutive games in which McNabb wore this jersey, and we offered this provenance to the collector who bought the jersey.

The white McNabb offered on ebay did not mention the specific provenance, was not acquired directly from the team (I called the Eagles and asked), and did not mention if it was photo-matched.

Now, I have no idea if this McNabb was worn in an NFL game, I never saw the actual jersey. I have no idea if it was worn in 1 game, 2 games, one second in the locker room. It could have been purchased directly from McNabb, but the ebay listing did not specifically say. If this jersey is a real McNabb (and we know he did wear at least one more white jersey in 2004 since we got ours midway through the season, and the customization appeared consistent with the one we acquired) it bothers me that the standard we set for authenticity and provenance was not matched. It bothers me because I believe it hurts the hobby ... especially when the jersey is being offered at market prices.

In a way, though, it helps MeiGray: Would you rather pay $5,000 for a white 2004 McNab that was photo-matched to six consecutive games, that comes with documentation from the Eagles attesting to its relationship with MeiGray, that it comes with documentation from MeiGray attesting to its relationship with the Eagles ...

or would you rather buy a 2004 McNab that a guy says is legit ... without offering specific PROOF of authenticity.

You collectors have a big role in this. It astounds me how many of you purchase questionable items, contact MeiGray to ask about authenticity, but admit you didn't ask these questions of the dealer, or collector, or auction house from which you purchased the jersey.
Why not? Some of you who have purchased from us, and have visited MeiGray, and have spoken kindly of our service and standards (and thanks again to all of you, you know who you are), have written of this difference in this Forum.

The difference, though, is usually the difference between absolute authenticity and questionable product.

We know how we all want items to be real when they fit into our collections. That is the dirty little secret unscrupulous dealers prey on. That is why we've exposed dozens of fake Mark Messiers, and no fake Alexander Karpovtsevs (no disrepect, Alex).

In our eight years in business, collectors have not come back saying our jerseys are not real. They have not come back saying we sell game-issued jerseys as game worn. When a team makes a mistake or misleads us (Dallas Stars' Stanley Cup Finals jerseys in 1999, Texas Rangers Turn Back The Clock jerseys in 2003), we are the ones taking the lead to correct the errors made by the teams.

In fact, the quality of the items we sell have been used by many collectors, including many of you who participate in this Forum, to identify some of the junk in the marketplace that passes as game-worn. Including jerseys "authenticated" by some of the so-called experts, auction houses, etc., whose lack of expertise is astounding and lack of thorough research astounds me.

We spend time and effort and money ensuring our relationships with the team include steps to ensure absolute authenticity. We have chosen not to deal with teams who elect not to take these steps, because we take very seriously the fact that we represent the teams AND THE COLLECTING HOBBY.

Now I don't say this to be sanctimonius. I say this because MeiGray cares about the hobby, and MeiGray believes this is the best and fairest way to make a fair profit ... which we feels it is entitled to by running its business this way.

Game-worn jerseys are not gas, or food, or other necessities. If I priced every Texas Rangers jersey too high, I would not sell enough to be profitable. So when MeiGray acquires an exclusive deal, it has a responsibility to the Rangers to pay enough, to the collectors to offer fair value, service and prices, and to itself to make a fair profit.

To ask the question, as you all have in this thread, if a deal is working, you have to give the deal time. The answer will come from the team (if it continues in the relationship), the dealer (if it continues in the relationship) and the collectors (if they purchase the items).

Thanks for listening,

Barry

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

I let him have the last word but I'm still thinking that classic two-word phrase we all know over and over in my head.

"Best Wishes"?
"Good Luck"?
"Yours Truly"?
"Roll Tide"?

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

What I can discuss, and what is important here, I believe, is the concept of how a sports memorabilia company can help work effectively with a team to improve the hobby, and offer collectors legitimate game-worn items at a fair price.

Hello Barry-

I just wanted to say thank you for the taking the time to share your thoughts. I know there are a number of us here who appreciate your efforts in bringing legitimate game-used items to the marketplace.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[Yankwood]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

"Best Wishes"?
"Good Luck"?
"Yours Truly"?
"Roll Tide"?

"Happy Trails"

[theotheo]

bernie williams???????

if You Have Something People Will Pay For Why Would You Sell It For Less? As Insane As 400.00 Is For Bernie Williams To Sign Anything I Don't Think You Can Blame Steiner For Charging It If They Can Get It. The Problem Lies In People Willing To Pay That. Anybody Who Collects Autographs With Any Intention Whatsoever Of Re Selling Them In The Future Should Know That They Will Never Never Never Make Any Money Reselling A Bernie Wiliams Item If 400.00 Was Paid To Sign It. Bernie Is A Solid Player Who Would Be Just Another Player On Any Other Team. Even On The Yankees It Is Almost Impossible To Get 400.00 For A Bernie Game Used Bat. If Bernie Dies Tomorrow (or The Day After The Signing) You Still Have No Chance To Get That Back. Anyone With Any Hobby Knowledge At All Should Not By A Bernie For Even Close To That. Unfortunately You Have Yankees Fans With Too Much Money To Spend And 400.00 Does Not Seem Ridiculous To Them Because They Would Pay The Same For Chad Curtis Or Scott Brosius. If You Buy A Bernie Signature From Steiner I Hope You Plan To Keep It And Cherish It For Ever Because If You Ever Sell It You Will Lose Money. Bernie Is The Al Gore (boring ) Of The Yankees And His Stuff Is Great For Collecting Dust. I Assume Anybody Who Reads This Forum Does Not Even Entertain The Thought Of Paying That.

[Yankwood]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Well, I don't think the complaints of $400 were that you couldn't sell them at a profit. Anybody knows that. And I learned long ago that most everything you collect should be because you like a certain player and not to someday make money off it because most of the time you will not. But you learn this over time.

[JimCaravello]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Barry - great post and I am glad there are folks in the hobby like you and like Steiner - yes, like Steiner. Let's start over one more time - I am glad that Steiner is involved with GU equipment. I have been able to get a few pieces that years ago I would have never thought about getting. Back to the point of my original post about how they market items. How do you ask $250 for an item one day ( and no one one is willing to buy ) and $1,500 the next? How do you put a 1992 Roberto Kelly GU jersey up for auction, when its really a 1992 Roberto Kelly All Star Game Used jersey - a pretty rare and desirable piece to find these days ( another post on the Forum). The marketing people at Steiner seem to be "a little off the mark" - that's what this post is about. If they had a few more people from the industry involved, there wouldn't be posts like this on the Forum. Barry - you don't make these mistakes - you understand the hobby and GU equipment - you understand how to price items - you know how to market items - you treat people with respect - that's why you are an asset to the hobby and you are successful.

One last thought along this same line about their lack of knowledge of what they are selling and their lack of knowledge about GU equipment. A friend of mine told me recently that on the YES Network, on an episode of Yankees Steiner Collectibles, the question came up to Brandon Steiner as to what the value of an Ozzie Guillen Game Used Bat was worth in the market. Now I didn't see the episode, and I am going from memory of what my friend told me ( so I might be off like $25 - $50 ), but Brandon said that before the World Series, a Guillen might sell for $250 and because they won the Series a Guillen might now sell for $750......hmmm.....let's see - Guillen played in the 80's & 90's - fairly common bat......I don't ever think I have seen a Guillen sell for more than $100 period. To think that someone would pay $250 before the Series and $750 after the Series just proves my point about their lack of knowledge of the GU industry.

I guess I got a steal a year ago when I bought my Joe Torre Game Used bat from 1971 - his MVP year - for $500. I bet if the Yanks didn't win any World Series under him, I would have been able to get that bat for $100!!

Other examples of Steiner really not knowing what they are selling include:
1. They have auctioned jerseys as game used tagged with players and years that do not coincide with the player being on the team that year.
2. The 1997 Jackie patch debate - they have auctioned sold a lot of these jerseys with no patches and no explanation whay they are missing. If there is no evidence of a patch being there, the jersey is not game used and yet they have sold a ton with this description.
3.They have auctioned & sold game used bats of players that never used that model bat in a game - but they show use, so they must be game used.
4. Numerous game used jerseys with just a year number and set number in the collar have been sold and they have been tied to a player that wore that number in the year - without the stitching of the player's name. They may be good, but are they? Did they speak with the Yankees Equipment Managers? They are so emphatic that they are game used of that player, but most people won't touch them.
5. A Posada jersey is currently on the auction site from 1997 - it had the Jackie patch! But the tail tag did not have Posada's name - it had the year and the lettering X-97. Well - can you explain to us why Posada's name is not in the tail? Why don't you find out before you sell it and give us an explanation? It might sell for more if you do that and you could educate us all at the same time. What does X-97 mean?

Steiner - get some people involved in your company that understand the GU industry. Get some people involved on the sales side who know what they are talking about. You have a great thing going - but think of what you could really do for your company, the Yankees and the hobby if you brought on the right people to direct this venture. THAT'S MY POINT. Jim Caravello

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Jim,

Thanks very much for your kind words.
Happy Holidays to you, and to everyone on the Forum.

Regards,

Barry

[axel900]

Re: Steiner Sports is out of touch with Reality

Here's an interesting question. If you wanted the pants at $250 so bad why didnt you bid on them?? I guess you have never participated in an auction before, If the item does not sell it goes back to the house. It is theirs to sell. Stop complaining and take advantage when you can.