Please post your 1989 Royals game used jerseys

[Puig66]

I have to say, I find it a tad discomforting to see an owner of an auction house coming on here to ask forum members to display their 1990 jerseys in what appears to be an obvious attempt to establish an unprofessional basis of authenticity for one he MAY be offering in his next auction.

There is nothing wrong with trying to do the right thing. That's commendable. And certainly this is the place to share. But this has raised my eyebrow as it has become obvious the reason for asking to see 1990 Royals jerseys. I find this as another telescopic view into the fact that most auction houses are ill-equipped to offer game used items to the hobby. They typically lack the knowledge, training, or experience to differentiate an authentic piece from, well, something else.

Is comparing what may potentially be offered in an auction to a smattering of photos supplied by members here a proper form of authentication? Do we even know if all of the offered pictures shared are authentic? I mean no disrespect to Mr. Goldin, but this is a head shaker at best.

Mr. Goldin, wouldn't it be prudent to seek professional authentication from MEARS or PSA/DNA? I understand they make mistakes too, but they do a fairly sound job. What scientific method of authentication are you using here?

Bram

[Puig66]

Excuse me, I meant to type "1989" instead of "1990". Is there any way to edit posts here?

Bram

[Hoosier39]

I have to say, I find it a tad discomforting to see an owner of an auction house coming on here to ask forum members to display their 1990 jerseys in what appears to be an obvious attempt to establish an unprofessional basis of authenticity for one he MAY be offering in his next auction.

There is nothing wrong with trying to do the right thing. That's commendable. And certainly this is the place to share. But this has raised my eyebrow as it has become obvious the reason for asking to see 1990 Royals jerseys. I find this as another telescopic view into the fact that most auction houses are ill-equipped to offer game used items to the hobby. They typically lack the knowledge, training, or experience to differentiate an authentic piece from, well, something else.

Is comparing what may potentially be offered in an auction to a smattering of photos supplied by members here a proper form of authentication? Do we even know if all of the offered pictures shared are authentic? I mean no disrespect to Mr. Goldin, but this is a head shaker at best.

Mr. Goldin, wouldn't it be prudent to seek professional authentication from MEARS or PSA/DNA? I understand they make mistakes too, but they do a fairly sound job. What scientific method of authentication are you using here?

Bram

What's wrong with asking to see tagging of other people's jerseys? Instead of auctioning off a jersey as "likely game worn" like a lot of auction houses do, Ken does his homework. Can't say they for most.

[Puig66]

What's wrong with asking to see tagging of other people's jerseys? Instead of auctioning off a jersey as "likely game worn" like a lot of auction houses do, Ken does his homework. Can't say they for most.

You tell me?

Should an auction house even be auctioning off something as "likely game worn"?

I guess to each his own. I didn't mean to start an argument. I very clearly stated that trying to do the right thing is commendable. We're all trying to do the right thing. We're not all running auction houses, however. For a living. And that living being made off of others hard earned dollars.

Let me ask you a question. When you go to the bank and withdraw some cash, would you want the teller to ask you to pull out a couple of bills from your pocket to compare what she was about to hand to you, to make sure she wasn't giving you counterfeit bills?

[dougiedshow]

You tell me?

Should an auction house even be auctioning off something as "likely game worn"?

I guess to each his own. I didn't mean to start an argument. I very clearly stated that trying to do the right thing is commendable. We're all trying to do the right thing. We're not all running auction houses, however. For a living. And that living being made off of others hard earned dollars.

Let me ask you a question. When you go to the bank and withdraw some cash, would you want the teller to ask you to pull out a couple of bills from your pocket to compare what she was about to hand to you, to make sure she wasn't giving you counterfeit bills?

For many auction houses , I would agree. However, Kens auctions are ran differently. They do not authenticate their own items. All items in goldin auctions, I believe, are authenticated by a top 3rd party. Psa, mears, etc. So, Ken is probably asking this for his own knowledge, not to authenticate an item on his own.

[KGoldin]

Hey Bram Debui: I am insulted by this comment in immeasurable ways.
First off, unlike many (most?) other auction houses, Goldin auctions does NOT issue Auction house LOAs for game worn. If an item does not come with an LOA from a player, Team, or league we use MEARS and have them research the item for us.
My reason for posting this message was because a 1989 Bo Jackson jersey entered my door, and before I wasted time and shipping in even sending it to MEARS I wanted to compare it to a 1989 since the only ones I have are 1990 and I also have a 1990 Score Board jersey .

GOLDIN AUCTIONS DOES NOT ISSUE ITS OWN LOAS FOR GAME USED ITEMS. Although I have an expert staff on hand , including the founder of game used universe chris cavalier, we do not write 'we assume it is game used' or 'appears game used' or 'presented to us as game used'. We also do not use a forum to form an opinion, and certainly would not issue a catalog or put in an items based on that, however, this forum is a good resource with many knowledgeable members and can often help eliminate an item before it is even considered for a catalog and prior to going to authentication. I have found its members to be valued community members who can often provide good research and photographs.

You obviously have never looked at our auction, read about our policies, or seen our history on this site. How could you? you are not a registered bidder at Goldin Auctions and have been a game used universe member for less than 2 weeks. I strongly suggest you get your players straight, your facts straight, and do not casually post comments about individuals or corporations you know nothing about, as it will get you into trouble.

I have to say, I find it a tad discomforting to see an owner of an auction house coming on here to ask forum members to display their 1990 jerseys in what appears to be an obvious attempt to establish an unprofessional basis of authenticity for one he MAY be offering in his next auction.

There is nothing wrong with trying to do the right thing. That's commendable. And certainly this is the place to share. But this has raised my eyebrow as it has become obvious the reason for asking to see 1990 Royals jerseys. I find this as another telescopic view into the fact that most auction houses are ill-equipped to offer game used items to the hobby. They typically lack the knowledge, training, or experience to differentiate an authentic piece from, well, something else.

Is comparing what may potentially be offered in an auction to a smattering of photos supplied by members here a proper form of authentication? Do we even know if all of the offered pictures shared are authentic? I mean no disrespect to Mr. Goldin, but this is a head shaker at best.

Mr. Goldin, wouldn't it be prudent to seek professional authentication from MEARS or PSA/DNA? I understand they make mistakes too, but they do a fairly sound job. What scientific method of authentication are you using here?

Bram

[KGoldin]

"Let me ask you a question. When you go to the bank and withdraw some cash, would you want the teller to ask you to pull out a couple of bills from your pocket to compare what she was about to hand to you, to make sure she wasn't giving you counterfeit bills?[/quote]"

Bram: poor analogy: We sell baseball, football, basketball, hockey, and other sports. You figure out how many teams that is, how many years that is, how many players that is, how many manufacturers that is.
The bats are easy. Every bat gets PSA with very few exceptions (ie a Yankees/steiner item). So you have 150 + teams, 1000+ players, and 1000s of possibilities when you look at different players, teams, and uniform manufacturers. and you want to compare that to a teller who looks at 6 different types of US produced bills?
You are grasping at straws here. You comment about 'likely game worn' and 'issuing an LOA' when it is goldin auctions policy NOT to do just that showed your lack of knowledge and experience dealing with Goldin Auctions. I am active and vocal member on here, because I think no one can ever learn too much, and there can be no 1 expert for everything. The best authenticator in the world for baseball flannels if not going to also be the best for Laker jerseys, or hockey sticks. You want someone omniscient? Good luck, because it doesn't exist, and if that person tells you it is them, you can be assured of getting bad material. I have been in the industry 35 years now. I have worked with thousand of athletes directly, and feel I know autographs as well as anyone in the industry, and kick out a ton of submissions each auction before PSA/DNA even walks into the door. I have been around game used and athletes since 1987, but I would not dare tell people I am an 'expert' or I will catch 'everything' which is why I use companies like Mears and PSA/DNA and DC sports in the case of Lakers items, and why we are the ONLY auction company to actively engage the forum because guess what, NO ONE can know EVERYTHING. What you can do, is do your research, always err on the side of caution, and rely on the best possible experts and photo evidence you can whenever the case arises that an item is not certified by the player, team or league.

[ChrisCavalier]

I have worked with thousand of athletes directly, and feel I know autographs as well as anyone in the industry, and kick out a ton of submissions each auction before PSA/DNA even walks into the door...NO ONE can know EVERYTHING. What you can do, is do your research, always err on the side of caution, and rely on the best possible experts and photo evidence you can whenever the case arises that an item is not certified by the player, team or league.

I just want to add a couple of comments to Ken's post. I can tell you first hand that Ken knows autographs as well as just about anyone in the industry. In fact, there have been numerous instances where I have personally seen Ken reject items presented to Goldin Auctions without even having PSA/DNA look at them. Then, even if he doesn't personally reject them, he will still use PSA/DNA before placing anything in auction.

In addition, even in cases where we have player, team or league authentication, our members have seen Ken will go the extra mile to have an item looked at just in case there might have been an error somewhere in the process. This was seen with a Matt Cain glove in Goldin's last auction where the item was mistakenly inscribed as being used for a period that was not accurate. Something that would likely not have been discovered if not for Ken taking the extra steps he took.

Net, I think it is fair to say that you are severely mistaken if you think Ken is attempting to "establish an unprofessional basis of authenticity." Bram, not trying to beat you up on this but, if you are going to post here, I really think it would be a good idea to research things first before making comments that are based on unsubstantiated speculation. Just my opinion.

-Chris

[Puig66]

Ken, and Chris,

Thank you for your responses.

Yes, I was (and am) unfamiliar with Goldin Auctions policies. I assumed, wrongfully apparently, that it was run in the same manner as the majority of auction houses in the hobby. Shooting from the hip, completely void of proper education, experience in handling these types of items, and knowledge to properly present a viable opinion of authenticity.

The very same auction houses that have handed my hind end to me with items which I have found to have been unauthentic once received in hand and researched on my own. The very same auction houses who hand out their own letter of authenticity for complete garbage.

Please excuse me for airing out some pent up frustration via a constructive question that may have been off base in this instance.

As I said, I think it's a commendable thing to try to do the right thing. And I apologize for ruffling any feathers by stating something obvious which you took offense to. Maybe Goldin Auctions is different. And what a breath of fresh air that would be. I will read their policies and familiarize myself with their company from this day forward. It sounds like they have a rock solid format of passing responsibility to the authenticating companies that specialize in these types of things (authentication). And that is the way it should be. That allows a clear path of recourse for collectors, such as myself, who have purchased many bad items over the years due to improper presentation and "claims" by an irresponsible auction house only interested in making money.

Again, I did not wish to start an argument, and I certainly didn't mean to upset the apple cart and unleash a tirade, the nature of which was presented towards me here. Ken, I have been collecting for 18 years. You certainly can express your vitriol towards me for making a statement you felt was unjust. But I know my stuff, having traveled along the treacherous hobby dirt road for years. Maybe just not related to your company, and for that I am sorry. I'm assuming this site is the place to discuss these types of things, so I stated my opinion on something that appeared to be a bit troubling. I would hope we can always state our opinion, right or wrong. A public forum is about good healthy discussion, something beneficial to everyone in the end.

Lastly, Ken, my name is Bram Deboe. I will be registering with your auction house for all future auctions, if I am still welcome to do so.

Thank you,

Bram

[Puig66]

For many auction houses , I would agree. However, Kens auctions are ran differently. They do not authenticate their own items. All items in goldin auctions, I believe, are authenticated by a top 3rd party. Psa, mears, etc. So, Ken is probably asking this for his own knowledge, not to authenticate an item on his own.

Thank you Dougie for the calmness in expressing your comments. I truly appreciate it.

Bram