Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen

[trsent]

So I buy the following postcard autographed by Muhammad Ali on eBay in a lot with some other items:



I submit it to PSA/DNA who come back and tell me it's not a genuine signature, it's an auto-pen. So, what are the odds I find another one for sale on eBay with an identical signature (though at a different slant)? eBay Item #251302411990 -



Close-ups:





Those guys at PSA/DNA know their stuff!

[xpress34]

Joel -

The 1st may be an auto-pen, but I beg to differ on the second being 'identical'.

1st, the 'hook' at the start of the M is more open in the 2nd auto.

2nd, Muhammad in the 1st one is straight across, in the second (even with the slant), Muhammad appears to have a slight upward arch as it goes across.

Finally, the spacing between the A and L in Ali are different.

They are very similar, but not identical - IMHO - and in my experience, I have never seen an auto pen write at different angles or make even minor variations as I observed above when signing items.

It is possible that the 2nd piece was purposely put into an auto-pen at an angle for the purpose of deception (i.e. making it look different from the 1st piece), but those minor differences in the sig itself show it to either be from a different hand or a different auto-pen machine.

The slant in the 2nd one (and the upward arch in Muhammad) lend it more to having been made by a human hand - maybe not actually Ali's, but a human hand none the less.

Again, just my opinion.

All the best -

Smitty

[trsent]

Joel -

The 1st may be an auto-pen, but I beg to differ on the second being 'identical'.

1st, the 'hook' at the start of the M is more open in the 2nd auto.

2nd, Muhammad in the 1st one is straight across, in the second (even with the slant), Muhammad appears to have a slight upward arch as it goes across.

Finally, the spacing between the A and L in Ali are different.

They are very similar, but not identical - IMHO - and in my experience, I have never seen an auto pen write at different angles or make even minor variations as I observed above when signing items.

It is possible that the 2nd piece was purposely put into an auto-pen at an angle for the purpose of deception (i.e. making it look different from the 1st piece), but those minor differences in the sig itself show it to either be from a different hand or a different auto-pen machine.

The slant in the 2nd one (and the upward arch in Muhammad) lend it more to having been made by a human hand - maybe not actually Ali's, but a human hand none the less.

Again, just my opinion.

All the best -

Smitty

I really don't care what you think as you live in a world where you can't see reality.

[xpress34]

I really don't care what you think as you live in a world where you can't see reality.

Joel -

I didn't attack you, I stated an opinion based on what I see.

I didn't slam your precious PSA/DNA.

So what is your issue? You are so arrogant that you have to be right about anything and everything that you post?

I simply pointed out what anyone who takes 2 seconds to look at those autographs should see.

I guess you have proven that you can't let things go... so you know what you can go and do now.

[Griffey24fan]

The autograph you purchased looks exactly like 99.9% of TTM autopens.

Not to mention it is consistent with an autopen in having the dot where each part of the auto ends. (After the M, D, I)

[xpress34]

I submit a true side by side comparison of the photos that YOU provided Joel.

The RED underline shows variances in distance between the letters on a straightline.

The RED circle in the first curves of the 'M' shows the variance in their arcs.

The RED angle lines on the H show them almost perpendicular - even though the second signature is at a slant.

The fact that the M, the angle of the H and the Ali all appear almost the same with one sig straight and one at an angle implies that if the angled auto were laid down straight, all of those items would be at a much more severe slant to the right than in the straight auto.

I could go on, but you'll never see the facts. Only what you want to believe.

If I had Corel, I could take out just the sigs and lay them over each other and show that they are NOT identical and you would still say that they are.

I would like OTHER opinions if anyone else care to give any.

I didn't post here because it was your post Joel - I posted here because I don't believe they are from the same hand or the same auto pen.

That said, since you decide to attack my opinion, without any facts, I will now take you to task.

You like to spout off about 'forum rules' this that and the other.

While you might not have come out and said it explicitly, you have implied that the one on eBay now is an Auto Pen as well:

I submit it to PSA/DNA who come back and tell me it's not a genuine signature, it's an auto-pen. So, what are the odds I find another one for sale on eBay with an identical signature (though at a different slant)? eBay Item #251302411990

which also implies that the seller is trying to defraud a buyer by claiming the auto was obtained in person. You even 'imply' that PSA/DNA has made an opinion on the eBay item:

Those guys at PSA/DNA know their stuff!

I believe the 'rules' state that you are supposed to contact the person you are calling out 1st to give them a chance to respond.

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item.

It doesn't appear that you did that Joel.

You simply decided that if yours wasn't real, his must not be otherwise and then you took it upon yourself to put his item number out there without ever contacting him 1st.

But not to worry. I took the liberty of contacting the seller and making him aware of this thread so that if he decides to defend himself, he can.

Have a nice day!

[xpress34]

The autograph you purchased looks exactly like 99.9% of TTM autopens.

Not to mention it is consistent with an autopen in having the dot where each part of the auto ends. (After the M, D, I)

Griffey -

You seem to know about auto-pens. I don't see those dots in the 2nd auto which the eBay seller claims was obtained in person on their ad.

Thoughts about the 2nd auto?

- Smitty

[trsent]

Smitty, please don't hijack my educational thread with your childish behavior. Auto-Pens are not always identical but close enough for my educational thread to not need your comments. Go back to whatever it is you do to kill time and please avoid my discussions.

[xpress34]

Joel -

1st, I did not hi-jack your thread. I made an observation based on this statement:

So, what are the odds I find another one for sale on eBay with an identical signature

I said:

The 1st may be an auto-pen, but I beg to differ on the second being 'identical'.

And I gave my opinion on why.

You had to get nasty:

I really don't care what you think as you live in a world where you can't see reality.

Griffey24fan made an educated comment about YOUR autograph and the Auto-Pen 'dots', so I asked him for his opinion on the 2nd auto (which he has not responded).

So I showed PROOF that they are not identical.

So now instead of having a rational discussion about the topic with me, you decide to attack me again:

Smitty, please don't hijack my educational thread with your childish behavior.

So having and stating an opinion is childish behavior? If that's the case, then welcome to Romper Room.

You continued:

Go back to whatever it is you do to kill time and please avoid my discussions.

But it's alright Joel. You always claim everyone else is a 'bully', but I'll forgive you for being the bully here - after all, you actually made my argument for me (and in doing so, agreed with me and my 1st post here):

Auto-Pens are not always identical but close enough for my educational thread to not need your comments.

You are the one who called them 'identical' and that was the whole point of my original post.

They are very similar, but not identical...

BTW and FWIW - if this is an 'educational' thread, maybe you should have posted it in the 'Educational Thread' area, not Autographs.

Good Day.

- Smitty

[Griffey24fan]

It doesn't really matter where the card was claimed to have been signed, people lie all the time. If they say IP it gives an uneducated buyer more confidence that it was real than saying it was obtained TTM. It could have even been boughten after the fact or in a collection of mostly IP items.

The card is one of the most common cards he would send back.

I bet you could match your Ali to one of the Ali's found at the link below:

http://www.aliautos.net/forgeries.html