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  1. #1
    Senior Member Eric's Avatar
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    NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Hello everyone

    I wanted to open up a dialogue here about the current state of the NFL game used market. I have deep concerns about where we are, and if something isn't done to correct the situation, I think it's going to continue to be a lawless wasteland.

    Never have I seen so many jerseys by star players available on ebay, on dealer websites and in major auction houses with serious flaws- Patches sewn in thew wrong place, improper nameplate, no customizations.

    These jerseys are going for thousands of dollars, and are actually worthless.

    The consignors are profiting, the auction houses are profiting and whoever the genius is who is buying up all of these jerseys to pass around is making out like a bandit all based on people's inexperience in the hobby, lack of education or inability to get answers before bidding, and it's time that this come out in the open.

    It has come to the point where I personally will not buy a current (post '97) NFL jersey unless I buy it directly from the NFL or a team website.

    Everyone out there who has an auction house or website claims to have direct team connections, but for all of the people who claim that, it can't possibly be true.

    In the case of Prosportsinvestments draft day titans jersey with nameplate- Rudy matched it thread for thread to a game cut which was sold by nfl auctions, so their claim of getting it from the team was a flat out mistruth.

    I want the following questions answered. It can be here, or emailed ot me privately and your identity will be kept secret.

    Where are these bogus star NFL jerseys coming from?

    Who is getting them? How are they getting them? Who is profiting by them?

    Who is doing the nameplate and patch sewing and lame customization attempts, and even fake repairs?

    There are a few people who have singlehandedly ruined this part of the hobby, and it's time they paid for these injustices. Now, I have heard the rumors, and I have the suspicions of who is behind this but what we need are the facts. Someone has to know something and be willing to step forward, even privately to stop this. Do the right thing, because certain people are lying cheating and stealing and I'm sick of it.

    I can be reached here or at ecky3@aol.com
    Eric
    Always looking for game used San Diego Chargers items...

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Great topic - I am certainly no expert, however I guess the real problems began when the NFL Auction site began selling game-cut jerseys. I think that started after 9/11 to raise $$. The intention -however noble at the time really opened the door to all these bogus jerseys.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    I don't think the problem began when the NFL started selling game cuts, I think it was the fact that they either didn't recognize or didn't care to recognize what the end result could be.

    The NFL and the individual teams who sell jerseys need to do something to either accurately catalog everything that goes out the door (i.e. MeiGray) or add something to both game-used and game-issued alike. I'd have no problem with seeing a dye patch sublimated into a game-issued jersey to prevent occurrances like this. I'd have no problem with these all having jersey tags with a serial number that's catalogued by the NFL itself. The issue is the haphazard way the NFL does this, not the fact that GI jerseys are being sold.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Eric's Avatar
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Nathan-

    I agree that the NFL is party at fault for not marking their game issued jerseys in a way to differentiate them from game used.

    However, I think there's a bigger problem. The NFL star jerseys that have been coming up in recent auctions have had details which suggest they did not come from NFL auctions- Such as

    A game cut WITHOUT signature on the number- where did this come from?

    Numerous Steelers and Patriots jerseys on the market- Both teams are very tight with letting their stuff go

    Peyton Manning jerseys with the wrong sleeves- That means someone added the numbers and nameplate to a blank. How many of these have we seen? Who did this?

    Patches being added in the wrong location

    Incorrect nameplates
    remember the shaun alexander asi jersey?
    http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...haun+alexander

    This is bigger than NFL auctions. There is doctoring going on here. (This goes for baseball too where tags are improperly sewn into collars- all with the wrong code)

    Does anyone know if NFL game cuts can be ordered straight from Reebok the way gamer X-Bats could be ordered (can they still, or has that changed)?

    Yes, the NFL is at fault for getting a certain amount of junk getting into the hobby with no tracking system, but there are people who are getting access to items similar to the real thing and then adding a patch here or there, or a repair here or there to add legitimacy.

    It's ruining the hobby. Someone has to do something.
    Eric
    Always looking for game used San Diego Chargers items...

  5. #5
    Senior Member
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    I think the problem is that with a few exceptions the teams and the players really don't care about this stuff. I'm constantly amazed at the level of interest and detail collectors have with this stuff, photo id's, stitches, alignment of numbers and letters, things like that. Everyone wants to make a buck and the players and teams will sell anything and say anything in order to do so. Even if you had a letter from Pete Rose or Joe DiMaggio would you believe them if they said that this glove or hat or jersey was game used? Most players don't know or care what they've used or didn't use and, if it is game used and important, they usually keep it for themselves. Today, players are given 5 or 6 jerseys per game to use, some like to give the extras to friends or the others less fortunate and say they are game used. A player will wear a jersey one or two times then get another, how can you tell by looking at it if it is game worn or not? And why would you believe a team if they said that certain items were game used? What's the proof? Why wouldn't they lie in order to make a buck? Let's face it, we are a weird group of people who believe in the purity of something that most don't care for or appreciate.

  6. #6

    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Peyton Manning jerseys with the wrong sleeves- That means someone added the numbers and nameplate to a blank. How many of these have we seen? Who did this?
    And also the wrong font used on nameplates... It seems the real villain is "the customizor" who is "restoring" blank jerseys and making a lineman's jersey into a QB's.... I would think logic says more than one person is responsible. There are probably many more who have jumped on this bandwagon...then jump on the ground and customize their "gamer".

    Light, but typical QB use...

  7. #7

    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post

    There are a few people who have singlehandedly ruined this part of the hobby, and it's time they paid for these injustices. Now, I have heard the rumors, and I have the suspicions of who is behind this but what we need are the facts. Someone has to know something and be willing to step forward, even privately to stop this. Do the right thing, because certain people are lying cheating and stealing and I'm sick of it.

    I can be reached here or at ecky3@aol.com
    Eric
    Eric - Let's call it what it is--these injustices are generally criminal offenses. I spent my early years of my post-college life as a CPA with a special opportunity of working with special prosecutors with the garden variety white collar crimes of embezzlement and theft. The man hours to take one case to court is overwhelming.

    I don't have any experience in Conspiracy to Defraud or Mail Fraud which I suspect are the criminal charges for what I think the "injustices" you talk about would actually be classified as and these are actually crimes punishable by imprisonment and/or monetary fines.

    Yes, that is the sad state of affairs in game used items today. These people involved may not be putting guns to people's heads or robbing banks, but I believe they are still serious crimes.

    I think too often these crooks may not realize that every time they knowingly buy a game issued jersey and roll it around in their back yard and sell it as game used are committing fraud and possibly other criminal offenses.

    The Operation Bullpen investigation I believe began in 1997, and Post 9/11 investigations like this may not be a priority given the state of the world. I do believe that proving fraud in game used is easier than what Operation Bullpen did with the forgery cases.



    SUMMARY OF CHARGES AND MAXIMUM PENALTIES

    Conspiracy to Defraud the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

    Tax Evasion in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7201. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.
    Filing False Tax Returns in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1). Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

    Mail Fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1341. Maximum penalty is thirty years and/or $1,000,000 fine per count.

    Larceny in the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C.carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a fine of $250,000 or twice the aggregate loss to the victims or gain to the defendant.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    I believe that the first problem lies in the fact that it is easy for people to fake game used jerseys and items and then sell them. Just being a member of this forum gives GUU members a leg up on the average collector but what about the average joe who is buying for the first time or a wife buying a present for her husband they will believe what they are told. It reminds me of the day when the autograph market took off and you would go by a table and the dealer would have 25 Michael Jordan autographed 8 X 10's with his own COA. Only after a lot of people were ripped off and these crooked dealers made a ton of money was there intervention by the authorities and the media. Now, I believe the autograph market is better than the early 1990's. But, that was before eBay! eBay is the second problem and here is why:
    1. It is easy for a dealer to list his fake GU items and sell them on to unsuspecting buyers
    2. Ebay trusts that its feedback forum is the sole governing entity to protect its buyers and we have seen that people still buy from dealers with poor feedback.
    3. It is easy for a person to have multiple accounts and build feedback up on small items before unloading GU stuff making them seem like a reputable seller.
    4. Fraud is very hard to prove and eBay does not like to take sides or really get involved so it ends up being you vs. the seller.
    5. Greed, eBay thrives on the fact that people are greedy. If someone lists a obvious suspect game-used item and a collector thinks that they are getting the item at a bargain some collector will buy it and since it is not legit the dealer still makes a profit and the collector gets burned.
    Third, bad authenticaters and auction houses. There are many threads about this.

  9. #9

    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by richpick View Post
    eBay is the second problem and here is why:
    eBay is not the second problem. eBay has just been another facilitating portal to allow some crooks to sell on just like the big auction houses, dealer shows, card shows, flea markets etc.

    I would guess almost every person on here buys/sells on eBay, and education is the key. Feedback Forum is great but certainly not to be 100% relied upon.

    You are right that GUF has helped members on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by richpick View Post
    If someone lists a obvious suspect game-used item and a collector thinks that they are getting the item at a bargain some collector will buy it and since it is not legit the dealer still makes a profit and the collector gets burned.
    Caveat emptor. This is the problem we talk about all the time. Education is the key. I will say that sometimes an honest dealer doesn't realize they are selling a fake item, but when it isn't the exception but the rule than you really don't have an honest dealer---do we. I have seen dealers say "well I didn't know", but the sign of a good dealer will be to make things right.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
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    Re: NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble

    I am not saying that eBay is at fault but that they provide the portal for these crooks to reach the masses. Before eBay I doubt that there were as many of these crooks because they either had to sell at card shows or via catalogs. Ebay is great I sell on ebay, I buy on ebay, and I own ebay stock in my portfolio (not doing so well right now!) but I have faith. I do not blame ebay, you are right the answer is knowledge for collectors and reporting and prosecuting the crooks.

 

 

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