Bat Grading Discussion

[Nnunnari]

I think it is time to have a long overdue discussion about the elephant in the room of the bat hobby, John Taube and his grading scale. I would like to know the opinions of other collectors. How much longer do you think it will be acceptable and/or tolerated that one man's opinion essentially dictates the market value for game used bats?
John Taube is an incredibly knowledgeable person when it comes to game used bats. He is one of the true pioneers in bringing structure to the hobby through his authenticating and grading. My personal opinion however, is that the hobby has grown too big for one man too handle. The game used bat hobby has seen tremendous growth over the past decade and even more so over the past five years. John's ability to authenticate bats with access to shipping records was a game changer for the hobby. Prior to the Louisville records becoming public information, it was a complete guessing game as to what was authentic and what was not. Now that the records, for the most part, are public and the internet is what it is today, collectors are more educated than ever.


My problem is with the grading system and it's subjective nature. The PSA/DNA grading system is essentially one man's opinion of a bat as much as they want to argue that their process is as objective as possible. Sure there is Mears, but PSA/DNA is the industry standard. Why should the quality and therefore value of a bat be dictated by a single person?

Not only is John the one grading nearly 90% of the bats in the hobby, he is a buyer, seller and collector himself. If this is not a conflict of interest, I do not know what is.


Every major auction house these days will send bats to John for grading. His "opinion" has an incredible impact on that bat's market value. I'll provide one of many examples later.


John's true value is in the vintage bat market. If I own a vintage bat, John is the guy I would want assessing that bat since he has experience in the vintage market which few can match. When it comes to modern era bats, there are many collectors whose opinion I value just as much, if not more than John's.


The system is broken and needs to be fixed. My question is, when will the hobby speak up and finally do something about it? It seems as though everybody just accepts the severely flawed system for what it is and goes with it or they are too scared to speak their mind in fear of the repercussions their opinions may have when their pieces need to be graded.


One possibility is to use a panel of three "experts" who individually evaluate a bat and the average of their three grades is the number assigned. Obviously this system would provide challenges as well. Would there be enough business to pay three people's salaries? Logistically, I would imagine all three people would have to be in the same location so bats are not being shipped all over the country. The individuals, if at the same location, would have to privately assign their grade and not discuss among themselves what their opinions are.


I attached pics of two graded Tony Gwynn bats. One graded a GU 8.5 and sold in Goldin Auctions for roughly $550. The other bat graded a GU10 and sold in Goldin Auctions for roughly $2,350. Do these bats appear to be three grades apart from one another, if at all? The grades should be flip flopped in my opinion. Not to mention, the signature on the GU10 bat is highly suspect and did not pass PSA/DNA. This further proves how much value the hobby places on a "GU10". This is one of many examples where John's opinion significantly swung the value of a bat one direction or another.

Does paying $175-$300 for a modern era bat to be graded really make any sense? As evidence by the countless "clerical errors" and typos in John's letters, I truly believe he is completely overwhelmed.

I hope the forum moderators recognize this as a healthy discussion for the hobby and let the conversation run despite any business relationships they may have with PSA/DNA. I would love to hear other opinions and suggestions, especially those who are actively involved in higher end bat collecting.

[vonbrandingo]

Great topic! I too saw the glaring conflict of interest when I first started collecting and learned of John's role at PSA and as a dealer of memorabilia, specifically bats. It was incredible to me but I accepted it and started to enjoy it when I began benefiting from it.

My question is whether bats with a PSA/DNA LOA would sell for as much if accompanied by a JT Sports LOA instead? And why doesn't John use a JT Sports LOA when selling through JT Sports? I have seen some of the older JT Sports LOAs, which from what I can remember, were issued to GF auctions. I do not hold those JT Sports letters in such high esteem as the PSA/DNA ones, which is very strange to me because it is the same person who signs them both.

[yanks12025]

Grading bats is stupid.. Collectors having bats restored is stupid... Given restored bats higher grades is even more stupid... I believe in several years people will regret having some bats restored(I'm talking big name players like Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, etc)

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Well thought out post. That said, I have the following concerns:

1) How do you know the signature failed PSA? I mean, it's possible that the owner didn't see much value in getting the signature authenticated, since Gwynn signed bats sometimes sell for less than the authentication fees and shipping.

2) Doesn't the bottom bat have use markers noted like the tapedd knob and the pine tar application? Maybe the buying audience also wanted an uncracked bat?

I understand the frustration, and you're right that it would help for PSA to hire others for the bat authentication division. Maybe they could even delve into the nether world of authentication that used to be occupied by MEARS. Do you have suggestions of who could potentially be hired to focus more on modern bats?

I think that the problem is also partially addressed by the authentication process itself. Taube & Malta both seem to have been hired by Collector's Universe to develop a vintage game used bat authentication division. This is fairly clear in the write-ups about the service, as well as the focus of their articles. I think it was a good idea to hire two of the best at authenticating the old stuff. It also sort of coincided with the development of the MLB authentication program for current game used stuff. Since there is a gap between vintage and current of around 40 years, there's a lot to be desired, but it's still much better than where it was.

Again, if you can come up with names of persons who might be experts at identifying multiple modern (but not current) player characteristics, I'm sure JT and Joe Orlando would love to hear your suggestions.

As for the JT Sports LOA, that's a good question. I used to wonder the same thing myself. I guess that for non-hobby people, the PSA name carries more merit and a higher price tag, but I would assume JT also has more resources at his disposal now (with PSA) than he did when on his own. Of course, that's speculation on my part. For all we know, he might still be running operations in the same manner as he did pre-PSA.

Personally, I don't think there's a conflict of interest in JT buying/selling bats and authenticating them, since people trust him. Yes, there's the potential for a conflict, but I don't think one currently exists. While brash at times (at least his emails read that way), he dos try his best to respond to questions individuals may have for him when he has the time. Also, I don't mind JT selling his bats with PSA LOAs, since that removes the possibility of "double dipping" down the road. If he used JT Sports LOAs all the time, there'd be the risk that someone might submit the item for authentication to PSA later down the road (if they didn't understand who JT Sports is/was).

My curiosity is more about why VM's name still appears on the LOAs when he seemingly has no active role in the operations. (I thought I read somewhere that he's chosen to focus on real estate or something like that.)

PSA is an interesting situation. On the autograph side, they constantly are criticized for having shadow authenticators. It seems that on the GU bat side, they're at the other end of the spectrum, where the authenticator is well-known, but a single person.

I agree that there is a potential for disaster with the current system. Hopefully JT and VM are training the next generation of bat authenticators. Maybe some of those trainees are even members of this board.

[pwnasaurus]

I don't pay attention to game used grades for anything. For cards that are mass produced, that's fine, but GU items are generally one of a kind (at least the vintage era stuff) and if it is good, it's good. If it has enough use for you, all original, etc whatever you deem a standard for owning it in your collection, then I don't understand why it would need a number grade. There are so many variables involved with each individual item that I solely judge them on their own merit rather than any number grade assigned to them. I think it's pretty obvious which item out of 2 has more use or has better provenance, etc as opposed to a card that you might not be able to spot less obvious flaws with. Number grades on GU items is something that started when I was away from the hobby and now that I'm back, it is generally confusing to me why one would put so much stock in them unless you are trying to build an entire lineup of PSA 10 1983 Orioles bats or something like the PSA set builders do.

tl/dr, if an item is good and it has the characteristics you seek as a collector, I don't see the appeal of a number grade being worth the heavy multiplier but I've always been fine with PSA 9 cards as well

[onlyalbert]

Nick, fantastic topic for discussion! Past threads have touched on this topic and my input hopefully does not step on any toes. I love authentication of bats but put me down for a dislike on grading. And here's why.....grading a bat is only one persons opinion, and what is it based on really? Maybe John needs to develop and publish a strictly adhered to scale with parameters for each point,half point, or grade. That way everyone knows why a bat is assigned such a grade. I believe Mears does this and it's very helpful.

I say this based on my many years of research on Pujols bats. I'm a Cardinals guy so would not be able to speak on other teams players useage so John is to be commended, or his company, to be able to identify the many thousands of current and recent players. But I do feel I know Pujols, at least from his Cards days. His tar patterns, hitting surfaces, and autograph are distinct for each of his 11 years there. If there has been a Pujols bat sold at auction, on ebay, or here in the last 6 years....chances are I have seen it and researched it.

Although I have not catalogued these many many many dozens of examples I can say that there deffinitely have been errors made in authentication, and many have been discussed here. There have also been many questionable grades assigned, and those too have been discussed. And if anyone does not think a Pujols 10 would sell for more money or more quickly than say a 8.5 or 9 then they are sadly mistaken. It's because of this that I have never had a bat graded.....but have owned many. I've seen bats graded a 10 that never should have and 8s that could be 10s and that is a shame because the difference in price would be many hundreds of dollars. Some people will only collect uncracked bats.....some only PSA 10s. So they won't even look at your bat in some instances and that is a shame. I feel it's too much weight given to something so opinion generated.

Would love to hear others thoughts on a grading scale.

[justrun7]

PSA does have a set standard scale for bat grading according to their website, incase anyone is interested.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/BatGradingStandards

[Nnunnari]

PSA does have a set standard scale for bat grading according to their website, incase anyone is interested.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/BatGradingStandards

Please explain the difference between the 10 and 8.5 in my example judging by the scale you posted.
It is 100% subjective.

[GameBats]

The hobby has spoken up, that's the reason the major auction houses utilize PSA/John Taube authentication and grading services and bidders are willing to pay a premium. He's second to none. I don't agree "the system is broken and needs to be fixed". If/when someone is willing to dedicate the time and effort to authenticating and grading bats with the knowledge and integrity of John Taube the system will welcome them with open arms. I don't feel the system is preventing anyone from breaking through the glass ceiling of bat authentication. It takes years of hard work and credibility.

[onlyalbert]

According to their site a PSA 10 must "show signs of medium to heavy use". There is a Pujols at auction now with "light" use graded a 10.