Game Used, Issued, Etc.

[allstarsplus]

In response to the business/moral issue...I respect your opinion, but please also understand that most people look to buy game issued jerseys for legitimate reasons--whether that is because they want to wear them, or because they are economically priced (compared to the used jerseys)...in many instances, I have sold Yanks & Mets issueds for $100 or even less--lower than the price of a Majestic off the rack in a retail store, so taking them out of circulation is not just a business issue (or a moral one), in my opinion--because it also enables the average person to own a cool item that belonged to a player on their favorite team.

People have been selling commons, blanks, game issued, etc. on eBay for years---just not the real Yankees stuff. I think at first you go out and think everyone is honest. Who would have thought 3 years ago there would be all these issues. Hindsight is always 20/20. I think we have pointed out on the Forum several incidences where these game issued on eBay are being used for deceptive purposes also so its just not a Steiner issue.

Now they are doing a couple steps in the right direction. They have "blacklisted" some dealers. I call on all the major Auction houses to also cooperate and check in with Bob with names of the consignors. I don't see it as a confidentiality issue just a simple Yes/No. If Bob sees a trend, he can do some further blacklisting. That Jeter jersey/pants combo with the Lou Lampson COA on Mastronet that sold for over $5,000 (w/ Buyers premium) is a start. Those pants should be easily trackable. http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?a...7&CurrentRow=1


Jason does make a good point that it is now a Moral issue since we know what is being done with most of these jerseys. Now that we have seen the result of all of this it has now become evident that using an analogy it is like giving a pint of whiskey to an alcoholic.

Andrew

[suave1477]

In response to the business/moral issue...I respect your opinion, but please also understand that most people look to buy game issued jerseys for legitimate reasons--whether that is because they want to wear them, or because they are economically priced (compared to the used jerseys)...in many instances, I have sold Yanks & Mets issueds for $100 or even less--lower than the price of a Majestic off the rack in a retail store, so taking them out of circulation is not just a business issue (or a moral one), in my opinion--because it also enables the average person to own a cool item that belonged to a player on their favorite team.

Bob I never said to not sell any Game Issueds as of course you want the lower end items to be available for the budgeted consumer. I am just saying to limit it a bit.
Actually it is a Business Issue Vs. a Moral Issue because I am sure you mean all well in good as far as making so many Game Issued Jerseys available, because you care to make sure there are so many available to the public and I am sure the profit doesn't play into any of that??????????
I appreciate that your concerend about our welfare of needs for Game Issued Jerseys!!!
BUT ITS STILL ALL BUSINESS AND PROFIT!!!
That is why you have to take responsitbility of letting out into a market too many Game Issueds making it way to easy for the frauders to doctor up Jeter / Matsui / ARod Jerseys (THATS A MORAL ISSUE)

Again if you did this in turn it would boost up sales
1 From consumers confidence in only purchasing the real thing from you
2 Supply and Demand - the Less you supply the more top dollar you can ask!!!

[JETEFAN]

George-

Not sure it's fair to say too little too late.

They are allowed to sell game issued items. How has the damage been done exactly? If you see a game used yankees item with a steiner letter, you know what it is. If you see the same item in an auction listed as game used with a lampson letter, which are you going to buy?

I don't understand how you can be critical of them for taking a step of banning people who buy game issued- thus costing steiner sales.

Eric

Eric,

I'll tell you why, Steiner has sold "game issued" items, many, many times more than 1, for just about anything Yankees related you can think of. The damage, which translates into a brilliant marketing strategy by Steiner, is clouding all items, which includes many legit and properly obtained ones. For instance, by publishing the fact that they sold a "game issued" Mattingly jersey just like the one that Donnie himself pulled out of his trunk and personally gave me. (Hypothetical), I later had the jersey authenticated by Lampson or anyone else for that matter. Eric, to address the issue you brought up about an auction item with a Steiner cert and a Lampson Cert. Would my item personally given to me by Donnie himself and Lampson authenticated be any less valuable than the same item with a Steiner cert. which was not given to them by Donnie and most probable as with most of their items, they couldn't even tell you if he or someone else wore it because it's been sitting in an closet for 20 years!!! That's my beef , Steiner is entitled to be in buisness and sell whatever they want, but let's not codem all items not Steiner . I'll leave you with this thought, the fact that Steiner is trying to remedy , blacklist and correct authenticity issues with Yankees items to me is acknowledgment that they have contributed in creating a big problem for the very people who are the base of their business, the Yankees collector. If you give someone an unloaded gun, you know it's only a matter of time B4 someone puts a bullet in it!! Too little to late but thanks to Bob and Steiner for at least now trying to stop the bleeding.

George

[Eric]

Eric,

I'll tell you why, Steiner has sold "game issued" items, many, many times more than 1, for just about anything Yankees related you can think of. The damage, which translates into a brilliant marketing strategy by Steiner, is clouding all items, which includes many legit and properly obtained ones. For instance, by publishing the fact that they sold a "game issued" Mattingly jersey just like the one that Donnie himself pulled out of his trunk and personally gave me. (Hypothetical), I later had the jersey authenticated by Lampson or anyone else for that matter. Eric, to address the issue you brought up about an auction item with a Steiner cert and a Lampson Cert. Would my item personally given to me by Donnie himself and Lampson authenticated be any less valuable than the same item with a Steiner cert. which was not given to them by Donnie and most probable as with most of their items, they couldn't even tell you if he or someone else wore it because it's been sitting in an closet for 20 years!!! That's my beef , Steiner is entitled to be in buisness and sell whatever they want, but let's not codem all items not Steiner . I'll leave you with this thought, the fact that Steiner is trying to remedy , blacklist and correct authenticity issues with Yankees items to me is acknowledgment that they have contributed in creating a big problem for the very people who are the base of their business, the Yankees collector. If you give someone an unloaded gun, you know it's only a matter of time B4 someone puts a bullet in it!! Too little to late but thanks to Bob and Steiner for at least now trying to stop the bleeding.

George

I have to disagree with you on this. Steiner is allowed to sell team issued items. If you have a mattingly that was handed to you by mattingly, the fact that steiner sells game issued mattingly does not make your jersey bogus. You have the provenance which you would include when trying to sell your mattingly.

The problem, in my opinion is when you see post 1996 yankees items without steiner letters but with a lampson letter, or no letter at all. This is an odds game. The odds are, if it had a steiner letter saying it was game used, it's more likely to have been game used. If there is no steiner letter, you have to take a larger leap.


Also, understand there are legitimate Yankees game used items which do not have a steiner letter. People just have to calculate the odds on those items' legitimacy for themselves before opening their wallet.

In your example- you got a jersey handed to you by Mattingly. Why then would you go get a letter from Lampson? It's the real thing.

I also disagree with your last statement. Blacklisting people is not acknolwedgement that Steiner has done anything wrong. That's ridiculous.
It is a good business practice, actually and good for the hobby. Steiner is costing themselves short term business by not selling these game issued items to certain individuals, to protect the value of the legit ones they sell. That's good for the hobby and yes, good for their business which I have no problem with. I think that's a win-win.
Eric

[JETEFAN]

I have to disagree with you on this. Steiner is allowed to sell team issued items. If you have a mattingly that was handed to you by mattingly, the fact that steiner sells game issued mattingly does not make your jersey bogus. You have the provenance which you would include when trying to sell your mattingly.

The problem, in my opinion is when you see post 1996 yankees items without steiner letters but with a lampson letter, or no letter at all. This is an odds game. The odds are, if it had a steiner letter saying it was game used, it's more likely to have been game used. If there is no steiner letter, you have to take a larger leap.


Also, understand there are legitimate Yankees game used items which do not have a steiner letter. People just have to calculate the odds on those items' legitimacy for themselves before opening their wallet.

In your example- you got a jersey handed to you by Mattingly. Why then would you go get a letter from Lampson? It's the real thing.

I also disagree with your last statement. Blacklisting people is not acknolwedgement that Steiner has done anything wrong. That's ridiculous.
It is a good business practice, actually and good for the hobby. Steiner is costing themselves short term business by not selling these game issued items to certain individuals, to protect the value of the legit ones they sell. That's good for the hobby and yes, good for their business which I have no problem with. I think that's a win-win.
Eric

Eric,
You state that the problem in your opinion is post 1996 items without a Steiner cert. or no cert at all, then you question having an item with no cert.authenticated!! As you say it is the real thing, but without a Cert. who's going to believe you? And yes. Steiner or anybody for that matter can sell whatever they want including "game issued", the bottom line is what's more important to the seller, the integity of a hobby that supposedly is a passion or the almighty dollar, regardless of the adverse effects and the problems it brings!! You are responsible for what you sell and the pros and cons associated. If what you sell brings problems and and you find yourself having to take steps to correct them due to pressure from the very people who keep you in buisiness or just realizing the consequences, it's smart to recognize it and your obligation to correct it. I find it admirable that Steiner has realized this and is saying it is going to do something about it, but then again it is their mess they should clean it up. Being the "only" source for authentic Yankees items as they claim, charging the prices they do for being exclusive distributors, they owe it to their clients to be flawless their product. At the very least know what you are selling. Eric, I am normally very quiet on this forum and hate the back and forth I sometimes see, but at the same time am a 30 year collector of Yankees items and a proud member of the collecting community who just happens to believe in my personal opinion that all the problems with Yankees items started when Steiner did.
George

[Rmmm912]

Guys, I was simply posting some information so that you knew that we are concerned about the issue and know that improvements can and should be made. If you want to take this as an opportunity to turn it into a negative, that is your prerogative.

But saying we are part of the problem is akin to saying that if Sears sells a knife and someone uses it to commit a crime, then Sears is also contributing to that problem...with respect to this topic, we are simply selling what is in our inventory, and whether you choose to believe this or not, game issued sales represent a negligible amount of total sales.

The simple fact is that these game issued items already exist--we do not manufacture them. The only alternative would be to a) tell the Yankees "thanks", but we don't want them, or b) give them away...and in either case, they will end up in the same exact place...in the secondary market.

[suave1477]

Guys, I was simply posting some information so that you knew that we are concerned about the issue and know that improvements can and should be made. If you want to take this as an opportunity to turn it into a negative, that is your prerogative.

But saying we are part of the problem is akin to saying that if Sears sells a knife and someone uses it to commit a crime, then Sears is also contributing to that problem...with respect to this topic, we are simply selling what is in our inventory, and whether you choose to believe this or not, game issued sales represent a negligible amount of total sales.

The simple fact is that these game issued items already exist--we do not manufacture them. The only alternative would be to a) tell the Yankees "thanks", but we don't want them, or b) give them away...and in either case, they will end up in the same exact place...in the secondary market.

Again Bob, this is not an opportunity to turn it into a negative but if your going to speak out loud on he forum about a sensitive subject as we all have been burned at some point in our past with a fraudulent item, then you should be receptive to the feedback whether good or bad.

Are you part of the Problem? YES take responsibility for your actions!!! Are you the whole problem? NO
As far as your Sears analogy wrong choice!!! Yes its true Sears is part of the problem and the court of law already agrees, remember Columbine??????? Kmart got in trouble for selling the guns!!! If Sears over produces Knives and sells it out to everyone and anyone then you have alot more weapons out there to do harm with

Again I am not saying to not sell them at all but to just put a limit, I think that is fair and will cut back a bit on doctored Jerseys

Bob I want you to know I do commend you for coming to the forum to discuss this with us, but at the same time be prepared for how we feel thats alll

I AM DONE EITHER WAY TO BOB HAVE A HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!

[kingjammy24]

george, i'm confused by what you're saying. i understand you feel frustrated, as a seller, because you believe steiner has inadvertantly made it difficult for you to sell your yankee items. however, before steiner ever came along, the yankees had notoriously tight controls on their uniforms and even went after collectors who possessed them. given this, were you really buying and selling yankee items with reckless abandon before steiner? before steiner, most collectors wouldn't have believed you managed to get something out of the yankees clubhouse and those who did wouldn't have had the guts to buy your items anyway for fear the police would come calling. if people doubt your items now because they don't have steiner paperwork then i don't see how this was any better before steiner came along.

second, while i understand the frustration of having people think your items aren't legit simply because they lack a steiner letter, you have to look at things from a buyer's perspective. this hobby is rife with sellers spinning fantastical stories of how they got their item "straight from the player/equipment manager/team source!", all without a single shred of evidence. most of these stories are festering loads of crap that typically end up being proven false. i think collectors have had it with all the garbage stories and they're willing to spend more and relegate themselves to a single source that they know for a fact has legit team/player access. therefore, while mattingly may indeed have given you a jersey personally, you can understand the natural reluctance of buyers to believe what sounds like just another b.s. story.
you know what i've never understood about these stories? the complete lack of any proof whatsoever. if i'm going to meet a player and personally get a jersey from them, you'd think i'd at least bring my camera to take a pic of us with the jersey. maybe even just a pad of paper for the athlete to write a short note. yet instead collectors are asked to place their faith in some story of how someone was once joe montana's gardener and in return for some great tulips, they got a jersey, and didn't even get so much as a photo, quick note or anything from anyone involved. if these acquisitions are legit (not stolen), then the individual shouldn't have a problem with such a request. i think collectors would be open to purchasing non-steiner yankee pieces if there was some decent proof of how they were acquired. i've purchased jays jerseys from third-party sources that didn't have jays paperwork. when they told me how and where they acquired the jerseys, i checked out all the names and facts and had them write a letter documenting the details of their acquisition. i knew i had to if anyone was ever going to believe the jerseys were legit.

"Would my item personally given to me by Donnie himself and Lampson authenticated be any less valuable than the same item with a Steiner cert."

it all comes down to whose story is believeable, doesn't it? both sides are saying they've got a mattingly jersey. steiner has proof. do you? if not, how can you realistically expect buyers to view your jersey as equal to steiners? i realize that before steiner, meigray and the like, most jerseys didn't come with team/player provenance. that simply meant a level playing field. noone had any proof of anything. all of a sudden, steiner comes along, signs an exclusive contract with the yankees, and instantly they've got provenance that's more substantiable than the usual unsubstantiated stories. the playing field isn't level anymore. if you want to level it again, then just make your provenance as good as steiners. written documentation from mattingly would be at least equal to a steiner cert if not better.

eric: i don't think there are any issues with selling game-issued jerseys. i believe that the damage done by steiner was in not having a better system (see: meigray) from the beginning. the holograms are rubbish as they can easily be removed and put on other jerseys. the letters barely have any unique info. there are no unique ids. i can buy a rich monteleone game-issued jersey for $500, remove the generic steiner hologram, put it on my $200 jeter procut from ebay, then put a piece of paper over the jersey description in the steiner letter, have kinkos photocopy it with a revised description literally taped over it, and presto. i now have a steiner derek jeter game-used jersey. price: $15k. from the very start, it was a braindead system. while i agree with bob that people will always try to circumvent things, i think you'd at least want to make it a little difficult for them. the issue is that steiner went out without having any way to permanently mark and track every single jersey. why couldn't steiner do what meigray did? they're only now starting to mark them with a dot. they're not sure if they'll use invisible ink too. maybe. maybe not. they've been selling jerseys for 2 yrs and they're just working out the security measures now?! better late than never i suppose. bob, two words for you: unique ids. if steiner can't wrap their heads around it, then don't bother thinking and just copy the meigray system. barry's done the brainwork. hopefully steiner at least has the resources to copy it.

rudy.

[JETEFAN]

Guys, I was simply posting some information so that you knew that we are concerned about the issue and know that improvements can and should be made. If you want to take this as an opportunity to turn it into a negative, that is your prerogative.

But saying we are part of the problem is akin to saying that if Sears sells a knife and someone uses it to commit a crime, then Sears is also contributing to that problem...with respect to this topic, we are simply selling what is in our inventory, and whether you choose to believe this or not, game issued sales represent a negligible amount of total sales.

The simple fact is that these game issued items already exist--we do not manufacture them. The only alternative would be to a) tell the Yankees "thanks", but we don't want them, or b) give them away...and in either case, they will end up in the same exact place...in the secondary market.

Bob,
Steiner is in the buisness to make money, as it should. but Steiner has decided to enter a very passionate hobby representing Billions of dollars, to put out a product in many cases without proper or lack of information is irresponsible and bad buisness. I can't even get Steiner to tell me what year a bat was used!! For your prices that's a joke!! If you are taking on the role of "the only "Yankees providers, then you need to find a way for a "game issued" to remain that (Mark it in some way) know the who, what, when and where of each item you sell, or yes maybe tell the Yankees no thanks on an item you can't provide information on. Your right items do exist, mainly thanks to Steiner, so I guess the solution is if you don't provide them, someone else will great news!! The hobby thanks you!

[CollectGU]

Bob,
Steiner is in the buisness to make money, as it should. but Steiner has decided to enter a very passionate hobby representing Billions of dollars, to put out a product in many cases without proper or lack of information is irresponsible and bad buisness. I!

George,

Is this more or less irresponsible than your selling your Yankees items for many thousands of dollars as game used and then saying that you need to protect your "sources" when asked for detailed provenance. I hate to pick a fight, but part of me thinks you are trying to take this stance simply to protect your investments in these Yankee items you are trying to sell without Steiner paperwork...Take your Clemens from 2001 World Series for example. We've already established that he didn't waer it while pitching from photo evidence. Now your contention that he could have worn your jersey on non-pitching days means the buyer must make a huge leap of faith, especially considering that all the photo evidence from everyday players shows them wearing the same pinstriped uniform throughout the entire series -that includes Jeter, Brosius, and Martinez from my research in Getty. Why did these players all use the same home uniform and Clemens did not? So, the leap of faith must get larger to accept your theory. Last, you mentioned that you priced it like a "game issued", but it doesn't matter how you priced it's how you are selling it- as game jersey for $6,000.


Regards,
Dave