Game Used, Issued, Etc.

[Rmmm912]

On the subject of Game Issued vs. Game Used, I feel compelled to post as we do get caught inadvertently in the crosshairs when one of our items gets misrepresented.

We take this breach of trust very seriously, as it affects every honest collector and reseller in the industry—and if the industry is tainted, we all are to some degree. That being said, in instances where individuals have been clearly identified as engaging in this type of activity, we reserve and enforce the right not to sell Game Issued items to these entities--and have "blacklisted" parties known to buy with intent to defraud (such as buying game issueds and reselling as game used). We cannot monitor every item as it makes it's way through the marketplace, but eventually, patterns do tend to emerge.

In addition, we have recently begun the practice of marking Game Issued jerseys (in a place that is not visible from the outside), to further help identify these items as Game Issued in the secondary marketplace.

If you are presented with an opportunity to buy a Game Used item that likely originated here at Steiner Sports—especially a high end item, feel free to contact us and we can tell you if similar items have been sold as Game Issued. That doesn't mean we can validate it one way or the other--you still need to be careful, as this doesn’t necessarily offer conclusive evidence, but at least you will have additional information with which to base your decision. Naturally, we cannot divulge confidential customer details, but we can probably help in instances where we see patterns of dishonest activity.

Lastly, even with these precautions taken, there are no guarantees; markings can be removed, LOAs can be forged, people can buy under assumed names, and there will always be instances in which fraud succeeds. We will continue to monitor this and hopefully learn and adjust to these challenges in the marketplace.

Bob Malandro
Yankees-Steiner Collectbles/Mets-Steiner Collectibles

[allstarsplus]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

Bob - I applaud you and your company for many of your efforts. You personally truly are a breath of fresh air in this game used arena.

I have catalogued old Steiner Yankee inventory lists to do the same thing as I did to see the vast #'s of the blank jerseys as well as the specific player game issued. By you "Blacklisting" some buyers, this will help.

I think that in the future if Steiner can put a permanent stamp on the blanks and game issued, then hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, we can put this mostly to rest. Going to #'d matching holograms is a great tool also. It still won't stop people buying the commons and changing the jersey numbers which as we all know we can't stop all the frauds out there.

Andrew

[JETEFAN]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

As far as Yankees items, Steiner has done it's damage. Too much "issued" out there already. Too little too late. It's nice to see Bob on the site though!!!

George

[JETEFAN]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

As far as Yankees items, Steiner has done it's damage. Too much "issued" out there already. Too little too late. It's nice to see Bob on the site though!!!

George

As far as contacting Steiner with high end help to "see if a similar "game issued" has been sold" are you kidding!, I think the only thing "issued" that I haven't seen yet is a pair of the Bosses boxers!!! Everthing and everbody else...been there done that!!

[Eric]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

To Bob and those at Yankees Steiner

This is a monumental step.

I offer my thanks to you in doing your part to keep the hobby clean. I urge others including the NFL to follow the example set by Yankees Steiner.

Recently, I have had email conversations with NFL Auctions about this exact topic.

After showing some recent examples of people manipulating their items, I asked,

"Is there something you can do to prevent these people from defrauding the public using your items?"
"Are the game issued jerseys marked in any way so they can't be sold as something they're not?"
One person responded basically, Nothing we can do. It's up to the buyer to do his homework.

I followed up with someone else who said they were in the middle of working on the Super Bowl auction and once that was over, this topic would be addressed with their legal department.

It is my hope that NFL Auctions follows up on this.

But back to the topic at hand. A gold star for Bob and Yankees Steiner. This is the right thing to do. Thanks for informing us.

Eric

[Eric]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

As far as Yankees items, Steiner has done it's damage. Too much "issued" out there already. Too little too late. It's nice to see Bob on the site though!!!

George

George-

Not sure it's fair to say too little too late.

They are allowed to sell game issued items. How has the damage been done exactly? If you see a game used yankees item with a steiner letter, you know what it is. If you see the same item in an auction listed as game used with a lampson letter, which are you going to buy?

I don't understand how you can be critical of them for taking a step of banning people who buy game issued- thus costing steiner sales.

Eric

[PK]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

In addition, we have recently begun the practice of marking Game Issued jerseys (in a place that is not visible from the outside), to further help identify these items as Game Issued in the secondary marketplace.

Bob Malandro
Yankees-Steiner Collectbles/Mets-Steiner Collectibles

Bob, thanks for the post and glad to see you here. Can I ask that you share what is exactly put in the Game Issued jerseys so collectors know what and where to look for it?

Thanks

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

I think I understand what George is saying I am not saying either him or Bob is right I am just confirming a feeling please George correct me if I am wrong in what I am saying,


From what it seems for every players used Jersey there happens to be about 3 or 4 issued Jerseys for that same player (FROM WHAT IT SEEMS) not to mention the blank Game Issueds which all SEEMS there is no end too.

Now I do understand it is a business and it is available "so why not sell it right?" thats what your there for to make profit and I agree.

BUT....

Within this hobby when something can be duplicated so easily to the untrained eye. You also (Steiner and any other dealers) have to take part in the responsiblity what is let out into the open market.

(I AM GONNA CATCH FLACK FOR THIS BUT HEAR ME OUT)

Maybe if you have - example 3 Game Issueds of one player to only sell 1 or 2 of them make it a little bit harder for frauders to doctor up more Jerseys. Now your probably saying thats crazy why would we stop from seling items as we would lose profit, not nessecarily because by doing that I beleive would give unbelievable strong confidence to the consumer that he would be getting the real item from only Steiner as they are so air tight to the concerns of the collector not just business and I think it would cause more buyers to rely on getting the real thing only from steiner which in turn would boost sales even more. This becomes a MORAL issue to Steiner!!!

So what it boils down too is a Moral Issue vs. Business Issue

I think if Steiner stood behind the Moral Issue, the Business Issue will take care of itself!!!

JUST MY 2 CENTS!!!

[indyred]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

It's a great idea. With all the technology out there today, I just wish more teams and leagues did stuff to protect there game used stuff. I really like how Meigray does things. I would love to see more items with a serial # tag, with matching paperwork.

[Rmmm912]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

Bob, thanks for the post and glad to see you here. Can I ask that you share what is exactly put in the Game Issued jerseys so collectors know what and where to look for it?

Thanks

We are marking the jerseys on the inside (armpit area) with a blue or black "dot"; we are also considering marking the game used jerseys with an invisible ink. I know, not very high tech, but for the time being, its an improvement.

In response to the business/moral issue...I respect your opinion, but please also understand that most people look to buy game issued jerseys for legitimate reasons--whether that is because they want to wear them, or because they are economically priced (compared to the used jerseys)...in many instances, I have sold Yanks & Mets issueds for $100 or even less--lower than the price of a Majestic off the rack in a retail store, so taking them out of circulation is not just a business issue (or a moral one), in my opinion--because it also enables the average person to own a cool item that belonged to a player on their favorite team.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

In response to the business/moral issue...I respect your opinion, but please also understand that most people look to buy game issued jerseys for legitimate reasons--whether that is because they want to wear them, or because they are economically priced (compared to the used jerseys)...in many instances, I have sold Yanks & Mets issueds for $100 or even less--lower than the price of a Majestic off the rack in a retail store, so taking them out of circulation is not just a business issue (or a moral one), in my opinion--because it also enables the average person to own a cool item that belonged to a player on their favorite team.

People have been selling commons, blanks, game issued, etc. on eBay for years---just not the real Yankees stuff. I think at first you go out and think everyone is honest. Who would have thought 3 years ago there would be all these issues. Hindsight is always 20/20. I think we have pointed out on the Forum several incidences where these game issued on eBay are being used for deceptive purposes also so its just not a Steiner issue.

Now they are doing a couple steps in the right direction. They have "blacklisted" some dealers. I call on all the major Auction houses to also cooperate and check in with Bob with names of the consignors. I don't see it as a confidentiality issue just a simple Yes/No. If Bob sees a trend, he can do some further blacklisting. That Jeter jersey/pants combo with the Lou Lampson COA on Mastronet that sold for over $5,000 (w/ Buyers premium) is a start. Those pants should be easily trackable. http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?a...7&CurrentRow=1


Jason does make a good point that it is now a Moral issue since we know what is being done with most of these jerseys. Now that we have seen the result of all of this it has now become evident that using an analogy it is like giving a pint of whiskey to an alcoholic.

Andrew

[suave1477]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

In response to the business/moral issue...I respect your opinion, but please also understand that most people look to buy game issued jerseys for legitimate reasons--whether that is because they want to wear them, or because they are economically priced (compared to the used jerseys)...in many instances, I have sold Yanks & Mets issueds for $100 or even less--lower than the price of a Majestic off the rack in a retail store, so taking them out of circulation is not just a business issue (or a moral one), in my opinion--because it also enables the average person to own a cool item that belonged to a player on their favorite team.

Bob I never said to not sell any Game Issueds as of course you want the lower end items to be available for the budgeted consumer. I am just saying to limit it a bit.
Actually it is a Business Issue Vs. a Moral Issue because I am sure you mean all well in good as far as making so many Game Issued Jerseys available, because you care to make sure there are so many available to the public and I am sure the profit doesn't play into any of that??????????
I appreciate that your concerend about our welfare of needs for Game Issued Jerseys!!!
BUT ITS STILL ALL BUSINESS AND PROFIT!!!
That is why you have to take responsitbility of letting out into a market too many Game Issueds making it way to easy for the frauders to doctor up Jeter / Matsui / ARod Jerseys (THATS A MORAL ISSUE)

Again if you did this in turn it would boost up sales
1 From consumers confidence in only purchasing the real thing from you
2 Supply and Demand - the Less you supply the more top dollar you can ask!!!

[JETEFAN]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

George-

Not sure it's fair to say too little too late.

They are allowed to sell game issued items. How has the damage been done exactly? If you see a game used yankees item with a steiner letter, you know what it is. If you see the same item in an auction listed as game used with a lampson letter, which are you going to buy?

I don't understand how you can be critical of them for taking a step of banning people who buy game issued- thus costing steiner sales.

Eric

Eric,

I'll tell you why, Steiner has sold "game issued" items, many, many times more than 1, for just about anything Yankees related you can think of. The damage, which translates into a brilliant marketing strategy by Steiner, is clouding all items, which includes many legit and properly obtained ones. For instance, by publishing the fact that they sold a "game issued" Mattingly jersey just like the one that Donnie himself pulled out of his trunk and personally gave me. (Hypothetical), I later had the jersey authenticated by Lampson or anyone else for that matter. Eric, to address the issue you brought up about an auction item with a Steiner cert and a Lampson Cert. Would my item personally given to me by Donnie himself and Lampson authenticated be any less valuable than the same item with a Steiner cert. which was not given to them by Donnie and most probable as with most of their items, they couldn't even tell you if he or someone else wore it because it's been sitting in an closet for 20 years!!! That's my beef , Steiner is entitled to be in buisness and sell whatever they want, but let's not codem all items not Steiner . I'll leave you with this thought, the fact that Steiner is trying to remedy , blacklist and correct authenticity issues with Yankees items to me is acknowledgment that they have contributed in creating a big problem for the very people who are the base of their business, the Yankees collector. If you give someone an unloaded gun, you know it's only a matter of time B4 someone puts a bullet in it!! Too little to late but thanks to Bob and Steiner for at least now trying to stop the bleeding.

George

[Eric]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

Eric,

I'll tell you why, Steiner has sold "game issued" items, many, many times more than 1, for just about anything Yankees related you can think of. The damage, which translates into a brilliant marketing strategy by Steiner, is clouding all items, which includes many legit and properly obtained ones. For instance, by publishing the fact that they sold a "game issued" Mattingly jersey just like the one that Donnie himself pulled out of his trunk and personally gave me. (Hypothetical), I later had the jersey authenticated by Lampson or anyone else for that matter. Eric, to address the issue you brought up about an auction item with a Steiner cert and a Lampson Cert. Would my item personally given to me by Donnie himself and Lampson authenticated be any less valuable than the same item with a Steiner cert. which was not given to them by Donnie and most probable as with most of their items, they couldn't even tell you if he or someone else wore it because it's been sitting in an closet for 20 years!!! That's my beef , Steiner is entitled to be in buisness and sell whatever they want, but let's not codem all items not Steiner . I'll leave you with this thought, the fact that Steiner is trying to remedy , blacklist and correct authenticity issues with Yankees items to me is acknowledgment that they have contributed in creating a big problem for the very people who are the base of their business, the Yankees collector. If you give someone an unloaded gun, you know it's only a matter of time B4 someone puts a bullet in it!! Too little to late but thanks to Bob and Steiner for at least now trying to stop the bleeding.

George

I have to disagree with you on this. Steiner is allowed to sell team issued items. If you have a mattingly that was handed to you by mattingly, the fact that steiner sells game issued mattingly does not make your jersey bogus. You have the provenance which you would include when trying to sell your mattingly.

The problem, in my opinion is when you see post 1996 yankees items without steiner letters but with a lampson letter, or no letter at all. This is an odds game. The odds are, if it had a steiner letter saying it was game used, it's more likely to have been game used. If there is no steiner letter, you have to take a larger leap.


Also, understand there are legitimate Yankees game used items which do not have a steiner letter. People just have to calculate the odds on those items' legitimacy for themselves before opening their wallet.

In your example- you got a jersey handed to you by Mattingly. Why then would you go get a letter from Lampson? It's the real thing.

I also disagree with your last statement. Blacklisting people is not acknolwedgement that Steiner has done anything wrong. That's ridiculous.
It is a good business practice, actually and good for the hobby. Steiner is costing themselves short term business by not selling these game issued items to certain individuals, to protect the value of the legit ones they sell. That's good for the hobby and yes, good for their business which I have no problem with. I think that's a win-win.
Eric

[JETEFAN]

Re: Game Used, Issued, Etc.

I have to disagree with you on this. Steiner is allowed to sell team issued items. If you have a mattingly that was handed to you by mattingly, the fact that steiner sells game issued mattingly does not make your jersey bogus. You have the provenance which you would include when trying to sell your mattingly.

The problem, in my opinion is when you see post 1996 yankees items without steiner letters but with a lampson letter, or no letter at all. This is an odds game. The odds are, if it had a steiner letter saying it was game used, it's more likely to have been game used. If there is no steiner letter, you have to take a larger leap.


Also, understand there are legitimate Yankees game used items which do not have a steiner letter. People just have to calculate the odds on those items' legitimacy for themselves before opening their wallet.

In your example- you got a jersey handed to you by Mattingly. Why then would you go get a letter from Lampson? It's the real thing.

I also disagree with your last statement. Blacklisting people is not acknolwedgement that Steiner has done anything wrong. That's ridiculous.
It is a good business practice, actually and good for the hobby. Steiner is costing themselves short term business by not selling these game issued items to certain individuals, to protect the value of the legit ones they sell. That's good for the hobby and yes, good for their business which I have no problem with. I think that's a win-win.
Eric

Eric,
You state that the problem in your opinion is post 1996 items without a Steiner cert. or no cert at all, then you question having an item with no cert.authenticated!! As you say it is the real thing, but without a Cert. who's going to believe you? And yes. Steiner or anybody for that matter can sell whatever they want including "game issued", the bottom line is what's more important to the seller, the integity of a hobby that supposedly is a passion or the almighty dollar, regardless of the adverse effects and the problems it brings!! You are responsible for what you sell and the pros and cons associated. If what you sell brings problems and and you find yourself having to take steps to correct them due to pressure from the very people who keep you in buisiness or just realizing the consequences, it's smart to recognize it and your obligation to correct it. I find it admirable that Steiner has realized this and is saying it is going to do something about it, but then again it is their mess they should clean it up. Being the "only" source for authentic Yankees items as they claim, charging the prices they do for being exclusive distributors, they owe it to their clients to be flawless their product. At the very least know what you are selling. Eric, I am normally very quiet on this forum and hate the back and forth I sometimes see, but at the same time am a 30 year collector of Yankees items and a proud member of the collecting community who just happens to believe in my personal opinion that all the problems with Yankees items started when Steiner did.
George