HOF voting

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

I can't say anymore because every time I defend my point of view on this site I get an email from administration because some people want me off of here and report my post as hostile or baiting. I am down to my last warning so I must be very careful of what I say.

Roady, I think I'm vocal in my opinion, but when I say things, I do my best to back up my opinions with facts. To my knowledge, I've never received an email warning, and I also feel that certain members can be hostile at times. How many warnings are people given that you'd be down to your last one already?

That said, I don't get how defending your claim/theory that Bonds started using PEDs in 1992 would get you banned. Just use facts and statistics to support your claim.

San Francisco is Bonds' hometown. He was offered a contract by them coming out of HS, but opted for college. SF made him the highest paid player in MLB history when he signed in 1993 (as a free agent). You're right. He wanted to move home.

[Roady]

Re: HOF voting

I received 2 warnings.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: HOF voting

I thought the commonly held belief -- and I'm not interested in Bonds enough to care to look it up -- was that he started juicing because he was jealous of all the attention McGwire and Sosa were getting. A quick look at his stats, to me, show that to be where he jumped to superhuman status.

[Roady]

Re: HOF voting

He averaged 25 HR's a year his first 7 years. Even taking away his first year in which he only played 113 games his average for the next 6 years was 26.6 a year.
Hit hit 46 in 1993. Nearly double his average. I really doubt if any players HR totals nearly double just because of moving from Pittsburgh to San Fransisco.

[Roady]

Re: HOF voting

I will state that I have zero proof that Bonds did PED's in 1993.

I have watched baseball my entire life and I have said since 1993 that he was on steroids. I was laughed at and ridiculed for many years about my belief that he and McGwire and Canseco and others were cheaters, until it was shown to be true.

I believe he started for sure in 1993. He just got better drugs and was taking them more aggressively in 2000.
Most people didn't want to believe that McGwire could have taken them his entire career until he stated it to be true.
I told people since he was a rookie that he was a roider.

[Roady]

Re: HOF voting

"I told people since he was a rookie that he was a roider." McGwire I mean.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

He averaged 25 HR's a year his first 7 years. Even taking away his first year in which he only played 113 games his average for the next 6 years was 26.6 a year.
Hit hit 46 in 1993. Nearly double his average. I really doubt if any players HR totals nearly double just because of moving from Pittsburgh to San Fransisco.

Roady, do you simply ignore when others present data/evidence to you?

The problem with saying Bonds averaged X HRs during his first 7 years, but then jumped to 46 in his 8th year is that it completely ignores variance. By picking 1993 arbitrarily, you ignore statistics.

From 1986-1992, Bonds hit a HR every 20 AB. From 1993-1998, Bonds hit a HR ever 16 AB. From 1999 (when the majority of individuals believe Bonds started using PEDs) through 2007, Bonds hit a HR every 9 AB.

The 25% improvement from his first seven seasons (age 21-27) to his prime and post-prime (age 28-33) seasons in HR rate falls within normal deviation. The spike during his supposed decline years (34-42) of almost 100% improvement in HR rate is clearly the work of outside assistance. Again, the "spike" in 1993 can be explained through variance.

[Roady]

Re: HOF voting

Roady, do you simply ignore when others present data/evidence to you?

The problem with saying Bonds averaged X HRs during his first 7 years, but then jumped to 46 in his 8th year is that it completely ignores variance. By picking 1993 arbitrarily, you ignore statistics.

From 1986-1992, Bonds hit a HR every 20 AB. From 1993-1998, Bonds hit a HR ever 16 AB. From 1999 (when the majority of individuals believe Bonds started using PEDs) through 2007, Bonds hit a HR every 9 AB.

The 25% improvement from his first seven seasons (age 21-27) to his prime and post-prime (age 28-33) seasons in HR rate falls within normal deviation. The spike during his supposed decline years (34-42) of almost 100% improvement in HR rate is clearly the work of outside assistance. Again, the "spike" in 1993 can be explained through variance.

Thank you for the personal attack.
I can't respond in kind because my account would be locked.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

Thank you for the personal attack.
I can't respond in kind because my account would be locked.

How does the following constitute a personal attack?

Each time that someone shows you that Bonds' HR total in 1993 isn't indicative of PEDs, so much as it's a case of statistical variance, you basically say that his choice to sign with SF somehow correlates with PED usage. When asked for some justification for your theory, you simply state Bonds hit 46 HR in 1993. That's it.

If my comment constitutes a personal attack, then I hope it gets deleted, but I don't believe my directing the comment to you (since you're the most vocal and recent to say Bonds used PEDs from 1993) would be uncalled for.

Roady, do you simply ignore when others present data/evidence to you?

The problem with saying Bonds averaged X HRs during his first 7 years, but then jumped to 46 in his 8th year is that it completely ignores variance. By picking 1993 arbitrarily, you ignore statistics.

From 1986-1992, Bonds hit a HR every 20 AB. From 1993-1998, Bonds hit a HR ever 16 AB. From 1999 (when the majority of individuals believe Bonds started using PEDs) through 2007, Bonds hit a HR every 9 AB.

The 25% improvement from his first seven seasons (age 21-27) to his prime and post-prime (age 28-33) seasons in HR rate falls within normal deviation. The spike during his supposed decline years (34-42) of almost 100% improvement in HR rate is clearly the work of outside assistance. Again, the "spike" in 1993 can be explained through variance.

[Skizzick]

Re: HOF voting

Some things that go into voting:

Integrity-Nope
Sportsmanship-Nope
Character-Nope

I'm not sure why anyone still thinks Clemens or Bonds should be in the HOF. Especially Bonds! Who cares what they did before steroids. The matter of the fact is they both lack any good moral values and are cheaters.

Good morals? Seriously? If we were to kick anybody who didn't have "good morals" out of the Hall of Fame, we'd be left with about 5% of them still in.

[3arod13]

Re: HOF voting

Ok, let’s get away fromPED/Steroid talk just for a moment, and let’s just talk about natural ability vs.cheating. As we are all aware, there are many ways of cheating. But I will agree that what occurred in this era, was very significant in the result of individual player numbers.

Do you honestly believe thereare players (including managers) in the Hall of Fame who haven’t cheated in oneway or another? Do you honestly believe thateveryone in the HOF is there due to only their natural ability?

We’ve had this discussionbefore about pitchers using substances or marking up the ball in order to getan edge (which they still do today). Mostsaid that’s been part of the game. I saythat’s cheating, which can increase their strikeout numbers, in addition toother things; and since they aren’t using their own natural ability to throwthe ball to get that strikeout or out on their own natural ability – it’scheating! Bet those batters will tellyou the same thing!

In a perfect world, it would begreat if everyone did everything based solely on their natural ability. Unfortunately, never going to happen.

Am I trying to justify thePED/Steroid era? No! Just saying!

Do I wish everyone justperformed based on their natural ability? Of course I do!

[teddy406]

Re: HOF voting

I NEVER want to see Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheff, Palmero, or any of the Roiders in the HOF. They already tainted our all time statistics in the game, so I don't want them tainting the HOF on top of that. I think Jeff Kent is a definate HOF eventually. All time 2b HR king with 377. 2500 hits. 1500 rbi. 560 doubles. 290 career avg. 350 obp. 500 slugging. One MVP and 5 time all star. Solid playoff numbers too. I think a lot of people in the baseball world don't realize how steller his numbers are. He's got my vote.

[3arod13]

Re: HOF voting

They already tainted our all time statistics in the game, so I don't want them tainting the HOF on top of that.

I can't argue or disagree with that!

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

I NEVER want to see Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheff, Palmero, or any of the Roiders in the HOF. They already tainted our all time statistics in the game, so I don't want them tainting the HOF on top of that. I think Jeff Kent is a definate HOF eventually. All time 2b HR king with 377. 2500 hits. 1500 rbi. 560 doubles. 290 career avg. 350 obp. 500 slugging. One MVP and 5 time all star. Solid playoff numbers too. I think a lot of people in the baseball world don't realize how steller his numbers are. He's got my vote.

I won't argue the "Roiders in the HOF" aspect, since that's personal prerogative, but I disagree with Kent in the HOF.

Kent's stats in 2000 were essentially a result of Bonds being in the line-up with Kent. (Beyond that, Kent had the fourth highest WAR among those receiving NL MVP votes.) Having Bonds as a teammate benefited Kent through increased RBI opportunities. If not for Bonds' PED use, Kent wouldn't have had a HOF-level career. I'm not arguing as much against Kent as pointing out that certain players benefited more from PEDs (that they didn't use) than others. Kent falls into this category.

[teddy406]

Re: HOF voting

That's a bit of a stretch on Kent benefiting from Bonds using PEDS. I mean he was the MVP in 2000 over Bonds, when Bonds was in his 2nd year of Roiding. Kent also had big years with the Astros and Dodgers. He didn't hit 377 HRs and get 1500 rbis because Bonds was using PEDS. Come on.