HOF voting

[Bondsgloves]

Re: HOF voting

Kent 100% benefited from Bonds batting ahead of him. Anyone who followed the Giants knows this as a fact. Barry was walked so many times that pitchers would pitch to Kent so they wouldn't move Bonds to second base. There is no way Kent puts up the numbers he did without Bonds.. The funny thing is everyone here is quick to say who cheated and who didn't.. A lot of you don't want to believe the truth that most in the league have been doing illegal stuff to get an edge in the past and will continue to do in the future. Believe what you will. Look at ball players today, testing is a joke the system is easily beat.

[Bondsgloves]

Re: HOF voting

The "steroid era" is over, but the "PED era" is in full swing. Not testing positive for banned substances? No problem. The PED industry is constantly creating new and improved ones--ones not on the list of banned substances. As long as athletes stay ahead of the list, they will be seen as clean. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is using there are many players who are putting up impressive numbers and our built bigger than NFL like linebackers..

[teddy406]

Re: HOF voting

Oh, don't get me wrong. Guys are still using. But you could say that for A LOT of guys, who didn't use, that played with a stud batter behind them. Gehrig/Ruth. Foxx/Williams. Aaron/Mathews. We could go on and on with this list. It's not really a PED issue on this. It's that MANY, MANY batters have benefitted from a great batter batting behind them. Maris in 1961 with Mantle batting behind him. Of course it helps. But you still have to hit that ball and drive in runs. Not everybody can do that. In fact, most can't. Kent could.

[EricTheRed44]

Re: HOF voting

These voters are jokes. If you are voting Bonds and Clemens why are you leaving Sosa and Mcgwire off and for that matter Palmerio should be back on the list. These are the voters who refuse to vote Mcgriff or Raines yet they vote Jeff Kent. Was Kent better than either of these 2. Personally I think every member of the Hall should be getting a vote to even it out so worthy candidates get elected in or at least get a fair shake.

Bonds and Clemens are INFINITELY better than Sosa and McGwire. All cheaters but if are going to give two votes, its a landslide in favor of Bonds and Clemens.

McGriff gets nailed the most. Without the Strike he would have been a 500 HR member and the man always looked the same and had similar production his entire career. He would have been a HOF'er without everyone boosting their numbers with roid use.

Also, watching Bonds for the early part of his career when he visited Cincinnati, there was a similar and maybe even more amazing player to watch... Eric Davis. If Davis would have roided up to help avoid injuries he could have easily had the career Bonds have (sands batting average). Davis and McGwire were both hurt OFTEN but it seems like once McGwire started using he was able to stay in the lineup. I remember Bonds and Davis being somewhat similar in body size and then BOOM, Bonds looks like he's a monster.

[EricTheRed44]

Re: HOF voting

The "steroid era" is over, but the "PED era" is in full swing. Not testing positive for banned substances? No problem. The PED industry is constantly creating new and improved ones--ones not on the list of banned substances. As long as athletes stay ahead of the list, they will be seen as clean. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is using there are many players who are putting up impressive numbers and our built bigger than NFL like linebackers..

There are users out there but you need look no further than the top 10 HR's in each league the past season compared to 10 years ago. The HR numbers are down dramatically. Sure there are users but its down considerably the past 3 or 4 years.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

That's a bit of a stretch on Kent benefiting from Bonds using PEDS. I mean he was the MVP in 2000 over Bonds, when Bonds was in his 2nd year of Roiding. Kent also had big years with the Astros and Dodgers. He didn't hit 377 HRs and get 1500 rbis because Bonds was using PEDS. Come on.

Kent's AB per HR/RBI by team:

SFG 19.6/4.98
NYM 27.3/6.86
LAD 25.3/6.09
HOU 21.3/5.23
Career 22.5/5.62

Given the breakdown of HRs & RBI per AB, I would say Kent definitely benefited from having Bonds hitting in front of him. In Houston, he benefited from Biggio setting the table and Bagwell moving him over.

It's possible that Kent gets to 375 HR (377) and 1500 RBI (1518) without being on the Giants, but I doubt it. If we credit Kent with his Astros years (best ratios after Giants) production, we get:

3434 AB @ 21.3 AB/HR = 161 HR v 175 actual
3434 AB @ 5.23 AB/RBI = 657 RBI v 689 actual

Kent's career without Bonds would be 363 HR and 1487 RBI, in a best case type of scenario. To say he didn't benefit from Bonds is unrealistic. I do think Kent would have reached 1500 RBI (one more season of compiling) and 375 HR (one or two more seasons of compiling), but he definitely benefited from batting behind Bonds during his time in San Francisco.

[ndevlin]

Re: HOF voting

Kent's AB per HR/RBI by team:

SFG 19.6/4.98
NYM 27.3/6.86
LAD 25.3/6.09
HOU 21.3/5.23
Career 22.5/5.62

Given the breakdown of HRs & RBI per AB, I would say Kent definitely benefited from having Bonds hitting in front of him. In Houston, he benefited from Biggio setting the table and Bagwell moving him over.

It's possible that Kent gets to 375 HR (377) and 1500 RBI (1518) without being on the Giants, but I doubt it. If we credit Kent with his Astros years (best ratios after Giants) production, we get:

3434 AB @ 21.3 AB/HR = 161 HR v 175 actual
3434 AB @ 5.23 AB/RBI = 657 RBI v 689 actual

Kent's career without Bonds would be 363 HR and 1487 RBI, in a best case type of scenario. To say he didn't benefit from Bonds is unrealistic. I do think Kent would have reached 1500 RBI (one more season of compiling) and 375 HR (one or two more seasons of compiling), but he definitely benefited from batting behind Bonds during his time in San Francisco.

Did Jeff Kent benefit from having Bonds in the lineup, sure. But you can't fault him for that.

Pick a HOF'er, any, and they were benefited by a teammate. It happens.

[Bondsgloves]

Re: HOF voting

I agree it isn't Kent's fault. But this was no ordinary teammate. We are arguably talking the greatest hitter of all time.

[ndevlin]

Re: HOF voting

I agree it isn't Kent's fault. But this was no ordinary teammate. We are arguably talking the greatest hitter of all time.

I gotcha. You seem to be a Giants fan- did Kent deserve the Mvp, or Bonds?

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

Did Jeff Kent benefit from having Bonds in the lineup, sure. But you can't fault him for that.

Pick a HOF'er, any, and they were benefited by a teammate. It happens.

I don't fault Kent for benefiting from Bonds being in the lineup. I'm saying that if you're going to say no on Bonds due to PEDs, you need to say no on Kent for the same reason.

[ndevlin]

Re: HOF voting

I don't fault Kent for benefiting from Bonds being in the lineup. I'm saying that if you're going to say no on Bonds due to PEDs, you need to say no on Kent for the same reason.

I'm not following. No to Kent because of PED's?

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: HOF voting

I'm not following. No to Kent because of PED's?

No, the reason this came up was someone said they'd never vote for Bonds, but they would vote for Kent. I'm saying I'd vote yes on both, but if someone is going to say Bonds is out, they would need to consider how Kent's candidacy is a result of Bonds.

For the 2000 MVP, I understand *why* Kent beat Bonds (media concerns coupled with games played), but I don't really know if Kent wins the MVP without Bonds being on the team. I think Bonds deserved the MVP, but I don't fault the selection of Kent, either.

[Bondsgloves]

Re: HOF voting

I gotcha. You seem to be a Giants fan- did Kent deserve the Mvp, or Bonds?

As a Giants fan, Bonds should have one the MVP. Bonds would have put up the same numbers with or without Kent. Kent no way would have put up the number without Bonds. The Sportswriters didn't like Bonds, if there was ever a chance to give the vote to someone else they would (example Pendelton).

[vonbrandingo]

Re: HOF voting

Kent did his damn job and did it well. I'd like to see Jody Reed put up Kent's numbers hitting after or before Bonds. I also like that he and Bonds didn't get along. Didn't matter, still drove him in.

[3arod13]

Re: HOF voting

I don't care when they used. How often they used. If one gets in, they all get in. Bonds hit 73 HR's. Really! Come on guys!!