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Thread: HOF voting
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01-16-2015, 11:26 AM #1
Re: HOF voting
Ok, let’s get away fromPED/Steroid talk just for a moment, and let’s just talk about natural ability vs.cheating. As we are all aware, there are many ways of cheating. But I will agree that what occurred in this era, was very significant in the result of individual player numbers.
Do you honestly believe thereare players (including managers) in the Hall of Fame who haven’t cheated in oneway or another? Do you honestly believe thateveryone in the HOF is there due to only their natural ability?
We’ve had this discussionbefore about pitchers using substances or marking up the ball in order to getan edge (which they still do today). Mostsaid that’s been part of the game. I saythat’s cheating, which can increase their strikeout numbers, in addition toother things; and since they aren’t using their own natural ability to throwthe ball to get that strikeout or out on their own natural ability – it’scheating! Bet those batters will tellyou the same thing!
In a perfect world, it would begreat if everyone did everything based solely on their natural ability. Unfortunately, never going to happen.
Am I trying to justify thePED/Steroid era? No! Just saying!
Do I wish everyone justperformed based on their natural ability? Of course I do!
Regards, Tony
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
~I'm sorry, I can't hear you....my World Series Ring is making too much NOISE! - Alex Rodriguez~
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01-16-2015, 11:49 AM #2
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Re: HOF voting
I NEVER want to see Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheff, Palmero, or any of the Roiders in the HOF. They already tainted our all time statistics in the game, so I don't want them tainting the HOF on top of that. I think Jeff Kent is a definate HOF eventually. All time 2b HR king with 377. 2500 hits. 1500 rbi. 560 doubles. 290 career avg. 350 obp. 500 slugging. One MVP and 5 time all star. Solid playoff numbers too. I think a lot of people in the baseball world don't realize how steller his numbers are. He's got my vote.
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01-16-2015, 12:04 PM #3
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01-16-2015, 04:44 PM #4
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Re: HOF voting
I won't argue the "Roiders in the HOF" aspect, since that's personal prerogative, but I disagree with Kent in the HOF.
Kent's stats in 2000 were essentially a result of Bonds being in the line-up with Kent. (Beyond that, Kent had the fourth highest WAR among those receiving NL MVP votes.) Having Bonds as a teammate benefited Kent through increased RBI opportunities. If not for Bonds' PED use, Kent wouldn't have had a HOF-level career. I'm not arguing as much against Kent as pointing out that certain players benefited more from PEDs (that they didn't use) than others. Kent falls into this category.
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01-16-2015, 05:11 PM #5
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Re: HOF voting
That's a bit of a stretch on Kent benefiting from Bonds using PEDS. I mean he was the MVP in 2000 over Bonds, when Bonds was in his 2nd year of Roiding. Kent also had big years with the Astros and Dodgers. He didn't hit 377 HRs and get 1500 rbis because Bonds was using PEDS. Come on.
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01-16-2015, 05:57 PM #6
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Re: HOF voting
Kent 100% benefited from Bonds batting ahead of him. Anyone who followed the Giants knows this as a fact. Barry was walked so many times that pitchers would pitch to Kent so they wouldn't move Bonds to second base. There is no way Kent puts up the numbers he did without Bonds.. The funny thing is everyone here is quick to say who cheated and who didn't.. A lot of you don't want to believe the truth that most in the league have been doing illegal stuff to get an edge in the past and will continue to do in the future. Believe what you will. Look at ball players today, testing is a joke the system is easily beat.
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01-16-2015, 06:04 PM #7
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Re: HOF voting
The "steroid era" is over, but the "PED era" is in full swing. Not testing positive for banned substances? No problem. The PED industry is constantly creating new and improved ones--ones not on the list of banned substances. As long as athletes stay ahead of the list, they will be seen as clean. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is using there are many players who are putting up impressive numbers and our built bigger than NFL like linebackers..
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01-16-2015, 06:30 PM #8
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Re: HOF voting
Oh, don't get me wrong. Guys are still using. But you could say that for A LOT of guys, who didn't use, that played with a stud batter behind them. Gehrig/Ruth. Foxx/Williams. Aaron/Mathews. We could go on and on with this list. It's not really a PED issue on this. It's that MANY, MANY batters have benefitted from a great batter batting behind them. Maris in 1961 with Mantle batting behind him. Of course it helps. But you still have to hit that ball and drive in runs. Not everybody can do that. In fact, most can't. Kent could.
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01-16-2015, 06:56 PM #9
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01-16-2015, 07:19 PM #10
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Re: HOF voting
Kent's AB per HR/RBI by team:
SFG 19.6/4.98
NYM 27.3/6.86
LAD 25.3/6.09
HOU 21.3/5.23
Career 22.5/5.62
Given the breakdown of HRs & RBI per AB, I would say Kent definitely benefited from having Bonds hitting in front of him. In Houston, he benefited from Biggio setting the table and Bagwell moving him over.
It's possible that Kent gets to 375 HR (377) and 1500 RBI (1518) without being on the Giants, but I doubt it. If we credit Kent with his Astros years (best ratios after Giants) production, we get:
3434 AB @ 21.3 AB/HR = 161 HR v 175 actual
3434 AB @ 5.23 AB/RBI = 657 RBI v 689 actual
Kent's career without Bonds would be 363 HR and 1487 RBI, in a best case type of scenario. To say he didn't benefit from Bonds is unrealistic. I do think Kent would have reached 1500 RBI (one more season of compiling) and 375 HR (one or two more seasons of compiling), but he definitely benefited from batting behind Bonds during his time in San Francisco.