HOF voting

[danesei@yahoo.com]

I NEVER want to see Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheff, Palmero, or any of the Roiders in the HOF. They already tainted our all time statistics in the game, so I don't want them tainting the HOF on top of that. I think Jeff Kent is a definate HOF eventually. All time 2b HR king with 377. 2500 hits. 1500 rbi. 560 doubles. 290 career avg. 350 obp. 500 slugging. One MVP and 5 time all star. Solid playoff numbers too. I think a lot of people in the baseball world don't realize how steller his numbers are. He's got my vote.

I won't argue the "Roiders in the HOF" aspect, since that's personal prerogative, but I disagree with Kent in the HOF.

Kent's stats in 2000 were essentially a result of Bonds being in the line-up with Kent. (Beyond that, Kent had the fourth highest WAR among those receiving NL MVP votes.) Having Bonds as a teammate benefited Kent through increased RBI opportunities. If not for Bonds' PED use, Kent wouldn't have had a HOF-level career. I'm not arguing as much against Kent as pointing out that certain players benefited more from PEDs (that they didn't use) than others. Kent falls into this category.

[teddy406]

That's a bit of a stretch on Kent benefiting from Bonds using PEDS. I mean he was the MVP in 2000 over Bonds, when Bonds was in his 2nd year of Roiding. Kent also had big years with the Astros and Dodgers. He didn't hit 377 HRs and get 1500 rbis because Bonds was using PEDS. Come on.

[Bondsgloves]

Kent 100% benefited from Bonds batting ahead of him. Anyone who followed the Giants knows this as a fact. Barry was walked so many times that pitchers would pitch to Kent so they wouldn't move Bonds to second base. There is no way Kent puts up the numbers he did without Bonds.. The funny thing is everyone here is quick to say who cheated and who didn't.. A lot of you don't want to believe the truth that most in the league have been doing illegal stuff to get an edge in the past and will continue to do in the future. Believe what you will. Look at ball players today, testing is a joke the system is easily beat.

[Bondsgloves]

The "steroid era" is over, but the "PED era" is in full swing. Not testing positive for banned substances? No problem. The PED industry is constantly creating new and improved ones--ones not on the list of banned substances. As long as athletes stay ahead of the list, they will be seen as clean. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is using there are many players who are putting up impressive numbers and our built bigger than NFL like linebackers..

[teddy406]

Oh, don't get me wrong. Guys are still using. But you could say that for A LOT of guys, who didn't use, that played with a stud batter behind them. Gehrig/Ruth. Foxx/Williams. Aaron/Mathews. We could go on and on with this list. It's not really a PED issue on this. It's that MANY, MANY batters have benefitted from a great batter batting behind them. Maris in 1961 with Mantle batting behind him. Of course it helps. But you still have to hit that ball and drive in runs. Not everybody can do that. In fact, most can't. Kent could.

[EricTheRed44]

The "steroid era" is over, but the "PED era" is in full swing. Not testing positive for banned substances? No problem. The PED industry is constantly creating new and improved ones--ones not on the list of banned substances. As long as athletes stay ahead of the list, they will be seen as clean. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is using there are many players who are putting up impressive numbers and our built bigger than NFL like linebackers..

There are users out there but you need look no further than the top 10 HR's in each league the past season compared to 10 years ago. The HR numbers are down dramatically. Sure there are users but its down considerably the past 3 or 4 years.

[3arod13]

I don't care when they used. How often they used. If one gets in, they all get in. Bonds hit 73 HR's. Really! Come on guys!!

[danesei@yahoo.com]

I don't care when they used. How often they used. If one gets in, they all get in. Bonds hit 73 HR's. Really! Come on guys!!

I disagree, and somewhat greatly. If you go with "one in; all in," I think we need to have parallel standards for PED users (like 25% higher - so 500 HR _standard_ would be 625 & 3000 hit _standard_ would be 3750; for pitchers 3500 Ks standard would be bumped up to 4375).

Kent did his damn job and did it well. I'd like to see Jody Reed put up Kent's numbers hitting after or before Bonds. I also like that he and Bonds didn't get along. Didn't matter, still drove him in.

As for Kent v Jody Reed: reductio ad absurdum. When I say Kent isn't MVP in 2000 without Bonds, I'm not calling Kent a journeyman middle infielder. Jody Reed was a below average MLB player in terms of WAA.

My point is more along the lines that Jeff Kent hitting behind anyone but Bonds ends up being a lesser version of Chase Utley, or someone comparable to Alfonso Soriano / Chuck Knoblauch.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

That's a bit of a stretch on Kent benefiting from Bonds using PEDS. I mean he was the MVP in 2000 over Bonds, when Bonds was in his 2nd year of Roiding. Kent also had big years with the Astros and Dodgers. He didn't hit 377 HRs and get 1500 rbis because Bonds was using PEDS. Come on.

Kent's AB per HR/RBI by team:

SFG 19.6/4.98
NYM 27.3/6.86
LAD 25.3/6.09
HOU 21.3/5.23
Career 22.5/5.62

Given the breakdown of HRs & RBI per AB, I would say Kent definitely benefited from having Bonds hitting in front of him. In Houston, he benefited from Biggio setting the table and Bagwell moving him over.

It's possible that Kent gets to 375 HR (377) and 1500 RBI (1518) without being on the Giants, but I doubt it. If we credit Kent with his Astros years (best ratios after Giants) production, we get:

3434 AB @ 21.3 AB/HR = 161 HR v 175 actual
3434 AB @ 5.23 AB/RBI = 657 RBI v 689 actual

Kent's career without Bonds would be 363 HR and 1487 RBI, in a best case type of scenario. To say he didn't benefit from Bonds is unrealistic. I do think Kent would have reached 1500 RBI (one more season of compiling) and 375 HR (one or two more seasons of compiling), but he definitely benefited from batting behind Bonds during his time in San Francisco.

[ndevlin]

Kent's AB per HR/RBI by team:

SFG 19.6/4.98
NYM 27.3/6.86
LAD 25.3/6.09
HOU 21.3/5.23
Career 22.5/5.62

Given the breakdown of HRs & RBI per AB, I would say Kent definitely benefited from having Bonds hitting in front of him. In Houston, he benefited from Biggio setting the table and Bagwell moving him over.

It's possible that Kent gets to 375 HR (377) and 1500 RBI (1518) without being on the Giants, but I doubt it. If we credit Kent with his Astros years (best ratios after Giants) production, we get:

3434 AB @ 21.3 AB/HR = 161 HR v 175 actual
3434 AB @ 5.23 AB/RBI = 657 RBI v 689 actual

Kent's career without Bonds would be 363 HR and 1487 RBI, in a best case type of scenario. To say he didn't benefit from Bonds is unrealistic. I do think Kent would have reached 1500 RBI (one more season of compiling) and 375 HR (one or two more seasons of compiling), but he definitely benefited from batting behind Bonds during his time in San Francisco.

Did Jeff Kent benefit from having Bonds in the lineup, sure. But you can't fault him for that.

Pick a HOF'er, any, and they were benefited by a teammate. It happens.