Roger Maris and Hank Aaron HR champs?

[teddy406]

How many people agree with me that Maris and Aaron are still the HR Kings? In my mind, there is no doubt!

[coxfan]

When Hank visited Columbia, SC a couple of years ago, the crowd of several thousands overwhelmingly cheered when the MC introduced him as the true HR Champ. But we should also recall that he holds the MLB record for total bases, which I believe he once said was his favorite record bcause it reflects all aspects of his hitting. ( I think Musial is second there.) Hank also holds the MLB record for RBI. He holds the MLB record for extra-base hits, and is 3rd all-time in base hits, which include 3016 hits that were not HR's! ( 3771 hits with the HR's added in.)

And he did all that despite receivng innumerable death threats, plus an apparent attempt to kidnap his daughter to hold her hostage and force hm to quit before passing Ruth. I believe Maris is the official AL record-holder, since Fay Vincent reversed the absurd "some distinguishing mark" ruling that left Ruth's record standing next to Maris, without consideting that all season and career records, not just HR's, would logically be affected by the change in schedule.

[sox83cubs84]

I still consider them to be.

Dave Miedema

[Roady]

I think Aaron is but never thought Maris was.

Now bear with me and don't get the pitchforks out too soon.

I think Maris and Mantle were taking steroids in '61, remember Mantle admitted to the injections from his Doctor when he was in the hospital at the end of the year. Many believe that in 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, the reason Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a doctor who injected Mantle with steroids and speed.

And Maris' hair was coming out during the year in patches. He said because of stress but he never suffered from it before or after that year. Interesting.
And before the alopecia crowd yells too loud I have had alopecia and know exactly what it is.

Look at some of Maris' HR's and the peak in 61 and slopes before or after.
1957 - 14 - 358 ab's - Hr every 25.57 ab's
1958 - 28 - 583 ab's - Hr every 20.82 ab's
1959 - 16 - 433 ab's - Hr every 27.07 ab's
1960 - 39 - 499 ab's - Hr every 12.79 ab's - HUGE increase
1961 - 61 - 590 ab's - HR every 9.67 ab's - WOW
1962 - 33 - 590 ab's - HR every 17.88 ab's -
1963 - 23 - 315 ab's - HR every 13.67 ab's
1964 - 26 - 513 ab's - Hr every 19.76 ab's

So we are to beleive that a man doubled his HR output suddenly after 1959? What has recent history told us about atletes who have done that? Barry Bonds, Chris Davis, etc.........
And dare I say it, Griffey Jr., you should dig into his numbers and see what some others see. A 20 HR a year hitter becomes a 40+ HR hitter after 4 years, kind of like Bonds huh? Find historical examples of that happening in baseball before the 60's.

Not to even mention the fact that Maris' season was longer than Babe Ruths giving him those needed extra at bats to pass him. Of course you can't fault him for that.

I admit that I have zero proof that Maris was on steroids but I think the probability is that he was. Baseball fans and especially invested fans such as ourselves have a hard time coming to terms with the facts that our heroes and especially those we have spent thousands on may not be what we thought they were. The investment we have in them and the possibility that investment may lose money can blind us and make us excuse what is staring us in the face.

[Roady]

One more thing to think about. Remember before the start of the 61 season Mantle and Maris kept talking about challenging Babes single season HR record? Kind of like Mark McGwire kept talking about it before the 98 season.
So how did these know they would challenge it? Seems like an odd thing to focus on during spring training doesn't it? How did McGwire know? Maybe they all knew something we didn't.

[teddy406]

Ha. Really Roady? That's hilarious.

[KGoldin]

Based on the theories in this thread ( and I'm not disagreeing with the concept) than Hank Greenberg who was pitched around once he got to 50 home runs because they didn't want a Jew to break Ruth's record, should be considered to have at least a piece of the hr records for a single season

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/sp...core.html?_r=0

[teddy406]

I'm disagreeing 100%. I've read every Maris and Mantle book out there. Every book about the 1961 season. Never once, ever, was there even a mention by an author, researcher, reporter, player, or teammate, that sniffed steroid use on the Yankees by those 2 or anybody else in 1961. Period. It wasn't a problem on the Yankees or even in baseball in 1961. Nobody wanted Maris to break the Babe's record, so if there was even the slightest suspicion of cheating going on, all the reporters and press would have jumped all over this. Never Happened.
The shot that was taken by Mantle, that got infected, was a doctor that announcer Mel Allen used all the time. He referred Mantle to this doctor for a shot that would help cure his cold and flu that he was fighting during the HR race. Mel Allen has verified this story numerous times. So you're basically saying that Mel Allen is covering for Mantle and/or that Mantle was getting steroid shots from Mel Allen's doctor? Never Happened.
Third thing wrong with Roady's theory is that Maris was concerned and talked about breaking the Babe's record. Maris never talked about breaking the Babe's record and never even thought he had a realistic chance at it in 1960. Roady said he did. If you know anything about Maris, he could have cared less about this record his first year in NY. He didn't even want to be in NY. He was just trying to fit in that first season and he it "only" 39 in '60. Like I said, I have read everything about Maris, and it wasn't anything he even thought about until reporters started bugging him about it in the middle of 1961. He only had 3 HRs in the first month of the season in 1961. The Babe stuff started when he and Mantle were both ahead of Babe's pace in the middle of the 61 season.
Just a crazy, crazy theory-that I HAVE NEVER heard in my life until this post.
So now I'm guessing Pete Rose was really framed too??

[teddy406]

As for his amazing season in 1961-those amazing seasons happen here and there throughout our baseball history. Ted Williams was juicing when he suddenly hit .406 in 1941? Check out his BA in 1940 and 1942.
.344 in 1940
.356 in 1942
Must have been juicing in 1941 because his average jumped 60 points.
We could point out hundreds of these seasons by different players throughout baseball's long history.
Really, the facts are that steroids were never in baseball until our man Canseco introduced them into the sport in the mid 1980s.
Let's give Maris his due.

[BirdsOnBat]

Really, the facts are that steroids were never in baseball until our man Canseco introduced them into the sport in the mid 1980s.

I've read a decent amount of accounts that peg Brian Downing circa 1982 as the culprit. His number shift seem to support this claim as well as photos.