2017 HOF voting

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Sosa also had more Hits, Runs, Home Runs, RBI, Doubles, Triples, stolen bases and a higher Batting Average

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

[Nnunnari]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

This has likely been a direct result of chronic foot injuries. Compensation.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Since I can no longer edit this, I'll just reply.

My apologies if my response came off in poor tone as that is not my intent. If someone wishes to punish McGwire for not staying healthy, that is certainly understandable and a part of the equation for sure.

Happy holidays.

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Since we have the mutual admiration society going, I will say this is extremely well thought out and exactly how I feel.
If there is a drug that can help you hit 45 Hrs, while striking out 41 times, and walking more than 6 out of 10 times up at the plate (while batting .362) let me have it!

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

If there are 4 players besides Mike Trout that are better than Albert on the angels I haven't seen them. Genuinely curious as to who you're referring to?

Albert picks and chooses when to "guess" and I've seen him sit on soft stuff just as much as fastballs.... Still never strikes out 100 times in a season. The reduced workout and more rest has been primarily due to forced rest by injury. His plantar fascia has been a lingering issue that's progressively gotten worse. Most players surrounding Albert will tell you that with the injuries he has dealt with few would even play let alone produce. He still adjusts his game and produces 30/100 currently and will have hit 3,000 hits and 600 hrs very shortly for his career.

Bonds is the best hitter I've ever seen. Left, Right....it doesn't matter. Best hitter of all-time.

[Chris78]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Albert Pujols is clearly a better player than Manny Ramirez....Not even a discussion there.

[nevrdiez34]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

I respect your opinion, but counting stats are a part of baseball. They were both on steroids for a significant stretch of their careers, but playing alongside Jose Canseco from the get go, I couldn't tell you if Mark played a clean game in his career. Steroids also tend to play a role in a lot of injuries. To me, Sosa was more of a complete player than McGwire, though I am admittedly based being a Cubs fan. I just don't see why Sosa gets such low voting percentages even among the steroid guys.

[GoCrazyFolks76]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

I don't think using ARod is a great example as he clearly juiced in order to "ramp up his offseason training". One of the best things about steroids is they help you help you heal faster.

It's hard to fault Pujols for struggling with injuries becaus he doesn't juice.

I'm pretty sure that none of these guys we're discussing would have had the longevity they had and continued production had it not been for steroids.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Your view of Manny is way too extreme. One thing that needs to be considered is that his stats would not be as good without the use of PED's. If he hit 450 home runs without PED's, would he be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I do not think so.

I like your view of McGriff though. He has the highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated to PED use that is not already in the Hall of Fame. I have always felt that in order for some of the PED guys to get in such as Manny, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc., McGriff needs to be inducted first. He would be my 10th ballot selection if I voted for 10 people on this year's ballot. Are any of those guys better than McGriff without the PED use? I feel that is something that people need to consider, and truth be told, may be the best way for these PED guys to get inducted at some point.

Not disagreeing with you in any way, but your McGriff argument (off the cuff one sentence) is no good. If they induct him, then the next "highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated with PED use" is Carlos Delgado, why by the way has 20 less homers than McGriff in 1500 less at-bats. You have just fallen down a slippery slope!

[Chris78]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Not disagreeing with you in any way, but your McGriff argument (off the cuff one sentence) is no good. If they induct him, then the next "highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated with PED use" is Carlos Delgado, why by the way has 20 less homers than McGriff in 1500 less at-bats. You have just fallen down a slippery slope!

McGriff had more than 400 hits than Delgado. He was also a 5 x All Star. McGriff was a better player than Delgado, although I can see your comparison.

The point you are missing is that I view McGriff as a non steroid user. Some of these other players have used steroids and their stats were inflated as a result. Would their stats be any better than McGriff as a result? Is it fair to induct someone with better inflated stats as a result? Using Delgado as a comparison does not work then because he is not as good as McGriff, and McGriff is on the fringe area.

[truvalue123]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Obviously Victor Conte made it...

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

one thing I notice about this years voting so far is it appears to me that 2018 induction will include Edgar Martinez

If you factor in the fact that McGriff lost a prime season due to strike, he is a 500 Home run club member. If you take the no steroid use at face value as fact, there has never been a 500 horn run club non steroid tainted member not in the hall. I also looked at his stats again today and he really was a model of consistency. I believe he will get in the hall of fame by veterans committee but not by writers.

[gorilla777]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Here's the new link:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!8063&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AAAsz3uDsmqy_Vw

[gorilla777]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Raines, Bagwell and Pudge

Bummed that Vladdy just missed out this year