Who is more responsible the authenticator or the auction house?

[amex46]

with all the fake and altered jerseys in current auctions who do you think should be held at fault lou lampson or the auction house. you have to think the owners of all these auction houses have to even think twice about some of the items he authenticates. i think it is comming to a point where the owners of these auction houeses have to be held more accountable and not just lou lampson.

[lund6771]

I think it's pretty cut & dry...the auction houses use Lampson as a shield...

and on Lampsons letter it is his "opinion"...

It's the scam of the century...just keep cranking out letters as fast as you can until the scam ends

[otismalibu]

They're both trying to "authenticate" as many items as possible. There's no money for them in research, just sales. If a bunch of people make enough noise, an item may quietly get pulled.

Anyone see the Bobby Orr jersey that was just auctioned off? Some actual game photos presented with the photos of the jersey (at the auction site). I realize a photo match is rare, but most auction houses don't even offer a photo that shows a style match.

Buyers best be doing their homework.

[CollectGU]

It is the auction houses responsibility to make surre an item is authentic, as the responsibility of an item being real falls on them. The authenticator's should be used as a tool to help them make that decision but they should not be the only factor used. It is not just Lampson, MEARS makes as many mistakes as he does, so does Grey Flannel.....

Dave

[TNTtoys]

While we're on this topic, let's throw a third party into the equation -- the consignor who either knowingly or unknowingly is passing something off that is not what it appears to be... If they are using the auction house and its loose authentication procedures to cheat some future buyer, wouldn't the responsibility start here? Or if we all agree that all three parties share some responsibility, I would make a case that MOST of the blame lies here.

[BarryMeisel]

Hi Greg,

As the authenticator who found one of the photo-matches on the recent Bobby Orr 1972 Stanley Cup Finals jersey, and as the company working directly with NHL, AHL, ECHL and NBA teams, I must take exception to your comment that a photo-match is rare.

Photo-matches are not rare. Photo-matches to real game-worn jerseys, especially jerseys of the modern era, are quite common. These photo-matches are certainly subject to significant research time and effort, and subject to the availability and accessibility of photos from that game/season/era.

MeiGray, which has an agreement with Getty Images and an exclusive agreement with the Dallas Mavericks, for example, needed no more than five minutes to definitively photo-match jerseys worn last season by Dirk Nowitzki.

And when I say photo-match, I mean proof-positive evidence that the jersey in one's hands was the jersey on the player's back based on actual game use, and number and letter positioning, and actual threads on the hand-cut names and numbers.

MeiGray believes that there are far too many non-game-worn jerseys posing as game-worn that are sold to unsuspecting collectors because an authenticator offers an opinion based on tagging, sizing, etc. We think that level of authentication falls far short of the standards necessary to ensure an actual game-worn jersey.

MeiGray also believes that when a company is asking, and collectors are paying, the money they are for legitimate material, this level of authentication is warranted.

Respectfully,

Barry Meisel
MeiGray Group, LLC

[G1X]

Barry,

I agree with you that it is much easier to photo-match uniforms from recent years due to the plethora of photos and video available (thanks in part to modern technology), but I also agree with Greg's statement if we are discussing vintage items. There is often not a whole lot of photographic evidence available for older items.

Collectors of defunct leagues, durene football jerseys, flannel baseball uniforms, and other such vintage items are hard-pressed to find an abundance of photo documentation to begin with, much less an exact match of the uniform being researched. And if a jersey such as a flannel or durene was "recycled" the following season, sent to the minors, or used in practice in subsequent years (many NFL teams did this for years), it becomes a crap shoot trying to find a match.

Just my thoughts.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[BarryMeisel]

Hi Mark,

I agree with everything you said.

I do not happen to think that photo-matching older items is a "needle in the haystack," as some will have you believe (I recognize you did not say that, but that phrase has been used often). Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

I say this for this reason:
Today's internet age allows us to access many, many Vintage photos. If a superstar wore a jersey in a bygone era, he likely wore it for a significant period of time. And since many, many photos are taken of superstars, it increases the possibility of the photo-match.

I believe too many authenticators hide behind the fact that photo-matching is difficult to actually spend the money and manpower to do the research necessary. They are more eager to churn out hundreds and thousands of LOAs than to properly research a significant item.

The reason I doubt many authenticators is that we know how long it takes to properly research an item. And I know how to multiply. There does not seem to be enough time in a day/month/year to do the level of authentication to properly research the number of items I see "authenticated."

Respectfully,

Barry

[David]

I agree with CollectGU that it is the auction house that is primarily responsible for making sure stuff is authentic. They know the consignors and, at the least, are picking and chosing what goes in their auction. They don't have to include in auction a jersey if they feel something is amiss or the LOA made an error. Using a second independent opinion (LOA) is fine, even advisable, but an auction house shouldn't rely soly only an an LOA.

My feeling is a good auction house or dealer is knowledgeable and honest. And if I had to chose between the two qualities, I'd chose honest.

[otismalibu]

Barry,

I realize you photomatch quite a bit of stuff. I'll occasionally read posts over at gameworn.net.

I guess what I meant, is that when I'm looking at items at various auction houses, I don't often see an item advertised as photo matched. Now, I mostly look at older hoops (70s & 80s) items and I'd guess those would be more difficult to match. But I'd be content if they simply posted some style match photos, to show that the NOB was indeed that style, or the number was comparable, etc.

I collect Julius Erving memorabilia. His game used stuff is pretty spendy, so I do much more looking than buying. But I see some low cut Converse at American Memorabilia with a Lampson letter saying they are Dr. J. game worn. I'm not asking for a photo match, just show me one pic of Erving wearing lowcuts in that style. Hell, how 'bout lowcuts, period. Or a 1986-87 Erving jersey with another Lampson letter being sold by Broadway Rick. It has a vertical arch NOB and the number style from the previous season. Seeing that the norm was a new number style and block lettering sewn on with a slight arch, I expect to see some visual evidence to support that claim that this "different" jersey is indeed a gamer.