2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[34swtns]

Like I said, anything's possible....... I've just never run across one that was tagged incorrectly.

Last year I bought a couple of mid 80's Bears defensive linesman's jerseys from a very prominant member of our forum. The seller he had contracted to sell them had listed both as "size 48 but measure more like a size 50 or 52". I don't know if that guy had a faulty tape measure or what, but both jerseys measured at dead-on 48 inches in the chest. Also, somebody had initially conned our fellow forum member into believeng that both jerseys were "game worn". So not only were they the wrong size for the respective players but they also had no evidence of game use, whatsoever.
Let me repeat......no evidence of game use on a mid 1980's Chicago Bears defensive lineman!
Ridiculous.

[lund6771]

Regarding the Payton AMI jersey:

I've said it a hundred times already......Walter Payton only ever wore a size 42. From 1975 to 1988. First game to last game.....size 42.
This is fact, straight from the mouths of 2 former Bears equipment staffers and confirmed by a very respected Bears vintage gamer collector.
People who have bought or sold size 44's and 46's can get pissy and defensive all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if it's not a 42.....
IT'S A FAKE. Period.

I stopped alerting buyers/sellers, auction houses to this fact a long time ago. I've seen dozens of Payton "gamers" bought and sold that were nothing more than retail authentics doctored to look like gamers. Keep in mind, the Bears authentics of the 80's were EXACTLY like the gamers in every way. And Payton was the most popular Bear during this period so there are literally thousands of potential "gamers" floating around out there. But nobody wants to hear it. People refuse to believe that they've been had, and that's understandable. But it doesn't change the facts.

it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!

now I'm thouroughly confused about what to think...

A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...

B. AMI has a dramatic discription of Payton carrying a satchel containing a jersey...the jersey is authenticated by the consignor...Lastly it is categorized by Dave O' brien as being one of the best in the hobby

Eric, can you set up a poll for forum members to vote A or B?

[RKGIBSON]

In the November AMI auction they had a Walter Payton, lot 1, that was originally sourced from Bill Wade. That jersey was a size 44, early jersey. Went and tried to pull it up to look at the specifics it is not in their data base. ?? It had a letter from Wade stating how and when he got it. It is the only jersey I have seen that I thought had any type of provenace.

Roger

[CollectGU]

it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!


A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...

Correction. 34 is stating that Payton never wore a size 44 ever in his career.

[lund6771]

This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I personally did that myself with the 49'ers in 1991 when I was in college...I bought a Joe Montana and made contact with Bronco Hinkek to show him the jersey and letter...he verified everything for me and I also developed a great contact for years...

My situation is very similar to 34Swtns...I mean, how do you NOT trust the statements from 2 employees and from a connected Bears collector?...were Lampson & Case in the locker room handling the Bears equipment?...Are Bears jerseys their expertise?...How many blounders has Lampson made over the years?

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision

[CollectGU]

This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I personally did that myself with the 49'ers in 1991 when I was in college...I bought a Joe Montana and made contact with Bronco Hinkek to show him the jersey and letter...he verified everything for me and I also developed a great contact for years...

My situation is very similar to 34Swtns...I mean, how do you NOT trust the statements from 2 employees and from a connected Bears collector?...were Lampson & Case in the locker room handling the Bears equipment?...Are Bears jerseys their expertise?...How many blounders has Lampson made over the years?

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision

I'd like to add that 3 graded 10 Walter payton's from the MEARS database are also 44's so it's not just Lampson as well as the one from Bill Wade that Roger mentioned....

[lund6771]

Agreed...there obviously are a lot of bad Paytons out there...seems like there's one in every auction...but can they ALL be no good?...is a real Payton that exremely scarce as, say like, Barry Sanders?...there's a ton of bad Sanders jerseys out there, I'd say that 99% bad is fair...in fact, the only 2 that I know are 100% real is Rogers and the one AMI just sold

3Swtns, how many do you know of out there that you know are 100%...I agree that back then there were only a couple of homes and roads worn each year...based on the GSH on the sleeves, and the style of Wilson tag, you can narrow down time periods of probablity...most Paytons out there have the GSH which was only worn 4 years I think...so based on the amount of jerseys that players were given back then, for this 4 year stretch Payton could have worn around 10 homes and 10 roads for the 4 years combined!!!!...I'm sure some probably got discarded or recycled...just in Erics thread we saw more Paytons being sold that ever could have possibley be worn...Hall of Fame has some I'm sure, familiy, maybe some friends...

so I guess a real Payton from this era is as scarce as a real Barry Sanders...a 100% real one should come around only once every 5-10 years...so mathematicall there is no possible way that even a couple of the ones listed in all the auctions above are real, no matter if he did or didn't wear only a 42

[34swtns]

I can't begin to explain all the wrong sized so-called Payton "gamers" that have changed hands in recent years other than the fact that a guy could very possibly make quite a chunk of change if he could come up with a reasonable facsimile of one. This has been proven time and time again. All I can offer is what I know and what I've been told by more than one very reputable source.
I certainly can't control what people choose to do with their money either but I do know, without a doubt, that any Payton game used jersey I purchase in the future will have to show plenty of visible game use and it will have to be a size 42.

[lund6771]

swnts...have u ever seen one that has made u 100% certain that it was real?...how many 100% real ones exist, that you know of?

I am honestly somewhat amazed that the last one in AMI's auction is being questioned....from what I have heard, Bob Case has had awesome football coonections over the years and built a nice collection...has to be one of the best collections out there

[CollectGU]

This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision

Pete,

I just got off the phone with the Pro Football Hallof Fame and they confirmed to me that the jersey that Payton gave them directly after he broke Jim Brown's record is a size........44, so i guess it is a fake. But you will spin this info. another direction about the mathematics of the numbers of jerseys which is all conjecture on your part because you have no idea how many jersey were worn by Payton those years. blah,blah,blah