2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[EndzoneSports]

I had a sinking feeling after my last post that my response was likely to (re)open any number of cans of worm. My apologies to all if for inadvertently initiated a hijacking of this thread’s original purpose. Now that the damage is done, I might as well clarify/expound on a few thoughts.

The “we” to which I referred is the hobby in total, not just at the collector end of the food chain. This “we” includes the hobbyist collectors, dealers/auction houses, and the 3rd-party service providers that we’ve (intentionally or otherwise) invited into our little fracas. As Mark H. pointed out the hobby is fraught with ills from all levels… From the uneducated and/or ill-informed collectors who would foolishly plunk down four digits worth of grocery funds on a LaBron jersey, blindly accepting the opinion of an authenticator, to the “professional” authenticator who is more interested in the quantity rather than the quality of the work to which he signs his name, to the seller who, motivated by profit (which all businesses must be), acts with near complete disregard as to the integrity of the items which they are peddling. Lund6771 is absolutely correct in his “scumbags-following-dollar-signs theory”, but guess what? Those “scumbags” are prevalent in all levels of the hobby. To arrogantly point the finger at any one single element as the embodiment of the anti-Christ lies somewhere between oversimplification and ignorance of reality.

Can we sweep out all of the crooks and shut down the authenticators? Absolutely; the solution is simple. Stop buying! As stated previously, whether it be an auction house or paid authenticator, these business have arisen in order to meet the demand for a need. That demand being the result of a huge surge of interest in sports memorabilia. If we as collectors no longer have a need for a particular service, it will cease to exist as the demand for that service diminishes. As crass as it may sound, all entities are in business to make money. When the cash flow dries up, and these businesses can no longer make payroll and pay the leasehold, they will go the way of the dodo. So what are we waiting for?!? The reality is that, this is not going to happen, at least not in the short term. But rest assured, this, like all things will pass. At some time in the future, our somewhat juvenile diversion of hoarding other people’s sweaty laundry will turn en mass to other endeavors. With this change in interests, the support structure will fold up tent behind it. But again, that is somewhere over the horizon.

In the reality of the present, there will continue to be some within the hobby who will exhibit less than exemplary behavior, just as there will be many in the hobby readily standing by to vehemently vilify such behaviors. As Mark pointed out, these same elements were in existence in the days long before the boom, and they will continue to be present long after the surge has subsided. Such is our nature.

As much as we want to disparage the auction houses for their offering of questionable items, they do indeed serve a useful purpose in the hobby—that of acting as a marketplace; bringing together memorabilia from a multitude of sellers across a wide geographic range and making them available to interested buyers. For all of the items questioned (some of them unfairly so), by and by, the vast majority of the items offered are legitimate, unquestioned and sell to satisfied buyers.

The same goes for the authenticators. With few exceptions (no names to be mentioned), I seriously doubt that anyone who puts up a shingle as a paid authenticator would intentionally go out with the intent of committing fraud. While several examples of authentication provided by (insert name of any authenticator) can be shown to have been careless, sloppy, or just plain worthless, I seriously doubt that the intent was there to have these acts considered as fraudulent. For all of their well-publicized gaffes, these folks utilize what can generally be considered a vast wealth of experience and knowledge to do a thankless job for relatively little compensation. And while we can continue to bash them all we want, this is another case of we got what we asked for. At the onset of the hobby’s explosion, buyers collectively lambasted the auction houses/dealers for providing their own LOAs—an egregious conflict of interest we said (never mind the fact that many of the old timers had been doing this for years/decades prior to said swell in interest). From our outcry for unbiased opinions came the professional authenticator—paid by the auction houses, albeit via revenues derived from seller/buyer commissions (and we dare be to be insulted by the rise in these fees). We cry foul when any of these authentications don’t meet our standards, and scream at the top of our lungs about their not providing contact information or being accountable for their misdeeds, but keep in mind the nature or their relationship. Having been hired by the seller/auction house, these authenticators act in an agency relationship for the sellers. As such, they are really accountable only to these sellers and owe us—the lowly collector—very little if anything at all. While an ugly prospect, such is an undeniable truth. Want to correct this? Stop buying or bidding on anything with a 3rd-party authentication. When we collectively send a strong enough message that we do not want nor are willing to pay for this service, the sellers will cease to offer it and the authenticators will move on to pursue other opportunities.

As to collectors, we must collectively look into the mirror and ‘fes up to our own faults as well. Any “novice” collector who goes out and plunks down $1,200 for a jersey without knowing his ash from his elbow pad, probably deserves to get burned… It’s called natural selection, and in the long-run it’s probably better for the hobby in general. The same goes for the dupe who finds that bargain of a deal on that Mecca of high-quality memorabilia called eBay and throws all caution to the wind to land that too-good-to-be-true deal. Chances are, (if he’s lucky) he got exactly what he paid for, and deserved it.

Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos. Unless there is a collective movement to transform the infrastructure of our marketplace, little is likely to change in short order. As Mark H. stated, what were going through now is not much different than what was transpiring 30+ years ago; only (some) the names and faces have changed.

(P.S. Apologies up front for any and all unchecked cynicism)

Best regards,

[aeneas01]

"A few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation? Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems."

forum members that "post endlessly... on the ills in our hobby" and those that continue to express their concerns have done a great deal to rectify the situation imo - such members have created an increasingly loud voice that reaches more and more ears every day. and imo the impact of this collective voice has been quite evident, quite real. further, while it's true that most forum members may be well aware of the problems within the hobby, there are many, many new visitors to the forum each day that are not; and i for one learn something new every time i visit.

"It is easy to blame ebay, lazy sellers, SCD, evil dealers, auction houses, authenticating services, any and all ripoff artists, etc., etc., etc. . . In my humble opinion, at the end of the day, there is no one to blame but ourselves when we don't take on the responsibility of becoming well-educated in what we collect."

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to suggest that collectors have no one to blame but themselves if the item they receive from a high profile auction house or experienced dealer proves not to be authentic strikes me as stunningly ridiculous and, quite honestly, is very maddening. as can be seen above, auction houses clearly and in no uncertain terms present themselves as having the required expertise to determine whether or not an item is indeed authentic - an expertise for which the buyer is charged a handsome premium. to imply that these type of auction houses should be let off the hook because a bidder does not possess the esoteric information found at game used universe and, by extension, deserve what they get because the required "homework" was not done is utterly outrageous imho.

should a bidder be required to know that a herschel walker game used georgia helmet listed at auction is bunk if the six digit date code stamped into the interior of the helmet is followed by a letter? a bidder has no business bidding on such an item if not equipped with this sort of esoteric info? is a bidder a stooge because he/she believes that a reputable auction house knows to check this sort of info, because the auction house states: "our knowledgeable staff of over 100 experts and 300 additional service-oriented professionals, and our suite of services, help our customers develop the best collections possible."?

"As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )"

i don't believe that the hobby is a mess and i certainly don't believe that collectors have played a part in creating a mess. nor do i believe that there is anything complex or complicated about the state of the hobby. imho it's really as simple as this - the hobby is comprised of honest folks and, unfortunately, dishonest honest folks. navigating between the two is the challenge.

further, i don't believe that the hobby has ever demanded third-party authentication nor do i believe authenticators are a product of auction houses attempting to limit their liability - i believe that auction houses simply and correctly determined that authenticators could increase the value/price of their lots and, through the years, they have become the norm. frankly, it seems, any piece of paper will suffice these days.

again, imho there is really nothing complicated about the hobby nor do i feel the hobby is a mess - like anything else where money is involved you will find crooks. but because of places like this, such crooks will be exposed and so will questionable business practices.

and posting concerns here works - every major auction house reads this site and many, many, many collectors come here for info even if they don't register and become active members. i know, i get emails all of the time from helmet collectors that were pointed to the forum, found my email address and have contacted me.

as far as i'm concerned publicly airing out shenanigans within this hobby does not constitute "whining" nor does it hurt the hobby. it makes the hobby better, safer and, most importantly, it works.

[mvandor]

Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos.

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

[EndzoneSports]

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

No disrespect taken. We all are likely to have differing opinions; these differences only embellish the fabric of our endeavor.

A big business indeed and certainly no disagreement there. My prior post noted that, the folks who are doing this professionally are out to make money; by definition that's what being in business is about. With this, however, also comes the responsibility to conduct business in an ethical manner, and yes, there will be some who push the limits on this front.

My point of emphasizing the "hobby" aspect is that of reminding us all that, from a collector's standpoint, this is supposed to be something that we have fun doing. So many take this hobby (and themselves) way too seriously. If this is not something that one finds enjoyable, maybe they should consider stamp collection or taking up cross-stitch. While we do have our share of crooks and scoundrel amongt us, this will remain, to a greater or lesser degree, until the cows come home. In the mean time, we must all try to continue educating ourselves, aid where possible in educating others, and most of all have fun!

Best regards,

[aeneas01]

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

you are precisely right mvandor - further, auction houses are indeed heavily regulated and do not enjoy the same "safe harbor" protection as ebay. but in order for regulations to be enforced, consumers must lodge complaints, i.e. regulating bodies need to be made aware of problems (usually again and again). regulating bodies, whether state or federal, generally do not go after businesses randomly - they generally go after businesses in response to consumer complaints. also, the media (local & national) is a good avenue for lodging complaints, for sharing your story - when media outlets are contacted enough times with like stories an investigative report can follow.

and for those that appreciate a little bit of irony with their beer....

Heritage Auction house, based in Dallas, says the negative publicity of auctioning questionable Hollywood memorabilia has damaged its multi-million dollar reputation. It is now suing the company that provided the items for sale. Heritage is the third largest auction house in the world. It sold more than 20 items that it advertised as having once belonged to Hollywood stars. Those pieces were provided by a company called LA Prop. Heritage says LA Prop knowingly made false representations about the authenticity of the items...

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....c0999080.html

[kingjammy24]

patrick:
you fail to make any distinction between the general concept of third-party authentication (which is what collectors initially demanded) and the reality of how authenticating is actually currently practiced (which is what collectors are currently bitching about). what was demanded is not what's been received. what's been received is a pitiful system designed exclusively by the auction houses/authenticators to maximize profits by gaming the system at the cost of the collector.

secondly, while the collecting community may have demanded third-party authentication as a general concept, they had virtually no role in determining its specific execution. you can blame collectors for the advent of the concept but not for the reality of how authentication is currently being performed. exploitation was a foreseen risk but awareness of risk doesn't equate to culpability. we all want air travel, for example, and we all realize hijackings are a risk but i hardly think passengers are to blame when their plane is hijacked.

you seem to fault the entire concept simply because it's been twisted and exploited, as if everything in life can't be twisted and exploited. in the instances where we've been given ethical, diligent experts performing genuine authentications there haven't been many complaints. if lampson is proof that authentication is a broken concept, then are you proof that it isn't? concepts rise or fall on their own inherant merits, not on individual personalities.

"Having been hired by the seller/auction house, these authenticators act in an agency relationship for the sellers. As such, they are really accountable only to these sellers and owe us—the lowly collector—very little if anything at all. While an ugly prospect, such is an undeniable truth."

i don't believe it's the truth in the least. in your world then, individuals are only accountable to the person who signs their paycheck? they aren't accountable to a set of ethics, morals, and standards? at a minimum, they aren't accountable to state and federal laws against negligence and malfeasance? if a realtor tells you that a home has a pool when it doesn't, a judge isn't going to give a shit that their commission comes from the seller.

mark h:
"few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation?"

i'll let patrick answer you; "When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large".

"Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems."

your assumption then is that no new hobbyists join the forum and/or that the forum attracts no new members; that the hobby is made up of a fixed group of veteran collectors who are all aware of the same things.

re: caveat emptor

i agree but it also seems like a wonderful way to let auction houses and authenticators off the hook and place the blame entirely on the buyers. there are laws against negligence, fraud, misrepresenation, malfeasance, and false advertising because it isn't simply caveat emptor at the end of the day. caveat emptor may be the best practical solution to the problem but it does nothing to address responsibility for the problem.

rudy.

[EndzoneSports]

Rudy:

It’s certainly not that I failed to note the disparity between the ideal and reality re: 3rd party authentication; it was simply an editorial battle that I chose to avoid. I think that most are aware that the current situation is far from ideal, being fraught with its own set of conflicts of interest. In a utopian world, any/all authenticators would be infallible, being blessed with the knowledge of all things sporting. In such a world, they would be readily willing to offer this service and their wealth of expertise for free, thus removing all of the financial pitfalls associated with performing such a service for hire. However, in the real world… Well, no sense rehashing that, you’ve pretty well summed it up perfectly! I also have my own deep-seeded opinions of both dealers/auction houses and several authenticators, but prefer to leave those opinions to the side.

Ours is a hobby that is, in large part based upon varying levels of uncertainty; tempered by faith. Absolute authenticity is indeed a true rarity. Because of this, all of the tools that we employ such as historical research, photo-documentation/analysis, and the seeking of 3rd-party opinions are simply an effort to close the uncertainty gap to a point where one have sufficient faith in their items’ authenticity so as to allow them to sleep at night.

I certainly don’t believe that any one participant can be demonized at the root of all the hobby’s evils. All play a part. Nor do I believe that there is a magic bullet that will cure all that ails us. As someone pointed out previously, this is a complex issue.

When I emphatically referred to our endeavor as a hobby, another was quick to point out that it is a multi-million dollar a year business. Even from a collector’s standpoint, ours is by no means an inexpensive hobby. When the “cheap stuff” often carries asking prices in the triple digits (and for the premium items, the sky’s the limit), this is not a venture for the faint of heart or weak of wallet. It is for this reason that I stand by the caveat emptor position. Not because I believe that the sellers and authenticators should be let off the hook, but because ultimately, it is the collector that has to determine his/her own comfort level in an arena of uncertainly.

All of the photo-matching, provenance and professional opinions in the world don’t make an item any more authentic, these only serve to mitigate an item’s inherent uncertainly. And just as the others shouldn’t be let off the hook, nor should the consumers. When a deal goes awry after the fact, many are quick to point the finger at some other element in the equation in order to place blame, often without shouldering any themselves for those things that they might or should have done differently to abate the situation in the first place. So often I’ve seen collectors wander waist deep into dangerous waters, devoid of any semblance of common sense and then scream bloody-murder at having been snake bit. The risks are fairly obvious; the warning signs are posted, yet so many fail to heed the warnings.

Respectfully,