Grey Flannel question

[stlbats]

I have bought a couple of GU bats from Grey Flannel and received pretty good service. They even paid the shipping charge and came off the asking price considerably. Both bats came with PSA/DNA COA's.


Thanks
Jason

[trsent]

This conflict existed for years and years within investment banking before Eliot Spitzer finally had enough and fined several investment banks hundreds of millions.

There you go again!

You have to compare!

RUDY MY CAPS ARE ON SO READ CLOSELY!!!

DO NO BID OR BUY FROM GREY FLANNEL. LET THEIR SOLID CUSTOMER BASE CONTINUE TO DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AND THEY WILL OR WILL NOT MISS YOU AS A CUSTOMER, BUT STOP LOOKING FOR TROUBLE.

In other news, I was 4-0 in football this weekend and there is two cute girls from Minnesota sleeping in my bed right now so I am in a great mode. Oh wait, I am sleeping on the couch, what is wrong with this picture?

(Ten minutes later I return to the computer without a picture because they were up and showering)

Anyway, my point is simple - You are looking for trouble and your comparisons are out of line. Sorry, you include a drug manufacture and some guy name Elliot I have never heard of. My point is don't buy from them and we have no issues. Right?

In the meantime, when do you start your own authenticating service? I'm sure it will be a success!

[EndzoneSports]

Patrick,

During your numerous dealings with GF, did you purchase items from them which they owned (as opposed to auction/consigned items)? Were these items authenticated by GF and include a GF LOA?

If the answer to my original thread question is yes, then I'd like to pose a follow-up question. (Just to make sure my intentions aren't misinterpreted, rest assured I genuinely want to know the answer. I'm not trying to fan any flames here). My follow-up question to all forum members:

- Is it not a huge, irreconcilable conflict of interest when a dealer directly sells items that only they themselves (or their directly employed authenticators) have authenticated?

It's a fundamental tenet that appraisers shouldn't sell or buy items they have appraised. I think the reasons are obvious. Most professional auction houses, antique stores, art houses, etc are aware of this basic rule. GF is in a 'challenging' situation because they're one of the few businesses that states it's both a dealer and authenticator. Most are either dealers or authenticators or auction houses but not all 3 at once. In an arrangement of this nature, it would require a good amount of effort to ensure the different sides don't affect each other. When substantial profits come into play there may be a good deal of 'subtle' pressure from the Sales dept on the Authentication department. I imagine the only way to ensure an ethical business of this nature is to refuse to sell or buy any items submitted for authentication and conversely to sell only items which have been authenticated by a third party. Note: LOA's are different than warranties. Warranties outline the buyer's recourse. LOA's state authenticity.
Does GF really sell items they've authenticated?

Rudy.

Rudy-

I have both purchased items outright and through their auctions. If I remember correctly, all itmes that come from GF will come with their LOA, regardless of method of sale.

As to your follow-up question, I'll leave that one alone. I have my own personal opinion of LOAs in general and since the parties involved in this debate appear to also be entrenched with their minds already made up, thowing out my biased opinion will only add fuel to the fire.


Regards,

[suave1477]

HERE IS AN ANSWER TO ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT GREY FLANNEL, they just recently teamed up with steinersports for a huge yankee auction. Do you think steiner would put yankees on the line if they were teaming up with a fraudelent or a bad repped company. Remember THE YANKEES IS STEINERS MONEY MAKER NOW. Brandon Steiner would not want to piss off THE BOSS ( GEORGE STEINBRENNER) by associating with someone less then reputable. I also have spoken recently with people from Grey Flannel and they seem to know what there talking about.

[kingjammy24]

My original question: Is it a "conflict of interest" for a dealer and an authenticator to be the same person? (MEARS, ISA, Mastro, PSA/DNA feel it is.)

Answers:
Grey Flannel has a great reputation.
Grey Flannel has lots of customers.
If you don't buy from Grey Flannel, then there is no issue.

I give up.

(Instead of using GreyFlannel as an example, maybe I should've used the Konichiwa Jersey Shop in Hokkaido.)


Rudy.

[trsent]

Patrick, sorry I am set in my mind over this. Maybe your insights could have swayed me.

Rudy, I don't understand, what is the conflict of interest? If a guy who sells drugs in a nightclub also is growing the drugs in his basement, what again is the conflict? Oh wait, you keep trying to compare this with something that doesn't match up in my weak mind.

If they are unbiased in their evaluations, there should be no issues. Now, since I have known of their company they have bought and sold merchandise and then even opened an auction house. What is the issue?

You want to tell me that all these other great companies don't do what they do, so it must be wrong. I bring a powerhouse like Upper Deck Authenticated and Steiner and I tell you they authenticate and sell their own merchandise, but this doesn't receive a response.

I don't want to compare apples, oranges and watermelons.

Don't tell me if MEARS doesn't do it then it must be wrong. I think if they are professional, which a few people have mentioned that they must be, there should be no issues.

Since you are not their customer, what is the concern?

As for the "Konichiwa Jersey Shop in Hokkaido", I am lost because your issue was with Grey Flannel from the start when you asked about if items on their web site come with letters from them. You were looking to pick on them over your concern, so don't tell me some shop I have never heard of in a city I have never heard of is doing the same thing. Geez, I am so confused. I think I should go back to bed.

Have a Happy and Safe New Year!

[kingjammy24]

i can hear it now..'not this issue again!'.

suffice it to say, i still hold my opinion that a dealer who authenticates items he sells is a conflict of interest. i understand others don't see it this way. many reply 'but i wouldn't sell an item i didn't think was authentic!'.
that's fine but not quite relevant. obviously as a dealer you should have faith in your product. i'm referring to an instance where the ONLY authentication on an item being sold by a dealer was performed by the dealer. ideally, as a dealer you would have your items additionally authenticated by a third party. (an unpopular option because it raises costs and reduces the profit margin). jim yackel recently addressed this very issue in his most recent 'editorial'. in a nutshell, he said that having his items authenticated by a third person seemed unnecessary because he can do it himself and that a conflict of interest occurs only when the dealer is dishonest. i'd offer that while third-party authentication may be practically unnecessary, it's necessary simply to eliminate the conflict of interest. secondly, conflicts of interest occur irrespective of a person's honesty. that is, they don't presume a person is dishonest or honest. they simply state that a situation is present which offers too great an opportunity for fraud. a doctor can never be on a drug company's payroll regardless of how honest he is simply because the 'potential' is there.
it's not a conflict of interest solely because the person is dishonest. it's a conflict of interest because the opportunity is present. there is no system of checks and balances present. how do you think it would go if the President said that he was the only one who was allowed to count votes?
no conflict there? the opportunity for fraud exists therefore the conflict exists. it doesn't presume innocence or guilt.

currently, this hobby, for the most part, is simply a cottage industry collection of hobbyists acting as dealers, selling out of their basements.
most of them have second jobs and seemingly few of them have advanced formal training in business or law. i think that as our hobby evolves and becomes more complex and lucrative, an increasing number of 'big businesses' similar to steiner will become involved. this will bring with it a number of people with advanced formal training in business law. as soon as that happens, i guarantee you'll hear more about this conflict of interest. as it stands now, some guy working a 9-5 and coming home at night to fill 8 or 9 jersey orders a month isn't really concerned with a conflict of interest that's going to necessitate that he raises his costs.

at any rate, i was perusing rob steinmetz's site and clicking away and started to read his bio. i noticed he's formally trained in marketing and as soon as i read that i thought "well then he should completely be aware of this conflict of interest that i'm referring to. as i kept reading through his site, lo and behold there it was:

authenticgamers.com -
"No conflict of interest issues. As an modern equipment expert working with Global Authentication, I do not examine any material that I have either owned or sold. I also do not offer anything for sale or trade with documentation from Global. By adhering to this policy, customers have no reason to fear self-authentication for purposes of personal gain."

Joel you may not understand it now..Jim Yackel may not understand it or want to believe it, but rest assured, the bigger this hobby gets, the closer we're coming to hearing a lot about it. A dealer offering items which have only been authenticated by himself is a clear conflict of interest. You may come up with all sorts of reasons why it shouldn't be, but as a matter of codified, formalized business ethics, it is.

Joel you brought up the example of Upper Deck Authenticated. Upper Deck Authenticated does not authenticate items. (The name is somewhat of a misnomer). That is, they do not directly employ any authenticators nor do they directly authenticate any items. They either sign an athlete to a contract and then directly have this athlete sign items (no need for authentication) or they buy items from auction houses and other dealers and rely on that third-party authentication. Upper Deck simply sells items. They don't authenticate them. I don't think MeiGray or Steiner can be pulled into this either because their items come directly from athletes so what's left to authenticate? Rafael Palmeiro's identity as he's physically handing them his jersey? This conflict only exists with dealers who buy third-party items. Joel, Steiner does not buy items from other auction houses or dealers. They rely on athlete/team contracts. There is no authentication occuring. Grey Flannel buys from dealers and auction houses. They employ authenticators.
It's typically the smaller dealers who are issuing their own COA's (except for Grey Flannel). Most of the bigger houses have the business expertise to know to avoid this conflict of interest.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Rudy, I was hoping we would drop this, but I guess something woke you up this morning.

I am too tired to post a long reply, but...

1st - Wait for this summer to talk to me about Upper Deck.
2nd - I don't know much, but I know in the past (I am talking years ago) Steiner would buy autographed memorabilia from the likes of Gloria Rothstein and put their hologram on the item.
3rd - Your issues with conflict and Grey Flannel are your issues. Their bidder and customers don't seem to have an issue, so why should you?
4th - You never replied when you want to start a service with me to authenticate memorabilia. I think we would make a great team!

[kingjammy24]

Heh Joel, I found this point of yours the most humorous:

"Your issues with conflict and Grey Flannel are your issues. Their bidder and customers don't seem to have an issue, so why should you?"

While they were making great returns, thousands of shareholders of Enron didn't see any issues. The only people who had issues were a couple of analysts. We know who ended up being right on that one.

Greasy, overly-processed fast food is very bad for your health. Billions of people are very happy eating it. Is there a problem with it? Every single doctor would tell you there is, even though billions of customers 'don't have any issues'.

"I guess if everyone's happy, there can't be a problem."
What a great motto. If only real life worked that way. Joel, unfortunately problems exist even if people can't immediately see them.

Rudy.

[suave1477]

Why Am I Not Surprised Trsent Again Fighting With Another Member For No Reason. I Am Curious Trsent Your The Only One Who Complains On This Site For No Reason And Your Reasons To Argue Most Of The Time Are Not Valid. Can You Comprehend When People Who Are New To This Hobby Are Looking For Harmless Advice. This Member All He Asked Was How Does Grey Flannel Work? You Go Off On A Rant Of Sarcasm About All The Ways He Can Contact Them Directly. Is That Really Going To Help Him, No Not Really!!!! Companies Are Built On Reputation Not But What They Say. Imagine How Many Scam Copanies Would Still Be In Business If We Kept Buying Things From Them If We All Went On What They Said. Hey Trsent Ill Sell You The Brooklyn Bridge For A Dollar Beleive Me Its In My Backyard And You Can Call Me, Email Me, Fax Me, Or Mail Me. You Can Trust Me I Have The Bridge For This 1 Time Low Offer Of A Dollar Just For You ( By The Way The Bridge Is Made Of Gold ) Lol Lol