Grey Flannel question

[trsent]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Patrick, sorry I am set in my mind over this. Maybe your insights could have swayed me.

Rudy, I don't understand, what is the conflict of interest? If a guy who sells drugs in a nightclub also is growing the drugs in his basement, what again is the conflict? Oh wait, you keep trying to compare this with something that doesn't match up in my weak mind.

If they are unbiased in their evaluations, there should be no issues. Now, since I have known of their company they have bought and sold merchandise and then even opened an auction house. What is the issue?

You want to tell me that all these other great companies don't do what they do, so it must be wrong. I bring a powerhouse like Upper Deck Authenticated and Steiner and I tell you they authenticate and sell their own merchandise, but this doesn't receive a response.

I don't want to compare apples, oranges and watermelons.

Don't tell me if MEARS doesn't do it then it must be wrong. I think if they are professional, which a few people have mentioned that they must be, there should be no issues.

Since you are not their customer, what is the concern?

As for the "Konichiwa Jersey Shop in Hokkaido", I am lost because your issue was with Grey Flannel from the start when you asked about if items on their web site come with letters from them. You were looking to pick on them over your concern, so don't tell me some shop I have never heard of in a city I have never heard of is doing the same thing. Geez, I am so confused. I think I should go back to bed.

Have a Happy and Safe New Year!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Grey Flannel question

i can hear it now..'not this issue again!'.

suffice it to say, i still hold my opinion that a dealer who authenticates items he sells is a conflict of interest. i understand others don't see it this way. many reply 'but i wouldn't sell an item i didn't think was authentic!'.
that's fine but not quite relevant. obviously as a dealer you should have faith in your product. i'm referring to an instance where the ONLY authentication on an item being sold by a dealer was performed by the dealer. ideally, as a dealer you would have your items additionally authenticated by a third party. (an unpopular option because it raises costs and reduces the profit margin). jim yackel recently addressed this very issue in his most recent 'editorial'. in a nutshell, he said that having his items authenticated by a third person seemed unnecessary because he can do it himself and that a conflict of interest occurs only when the dealer is dishonest. i'd offer that while third-party authentication may be practically unnecessary, it's necessary simply to eliminate the conflict of interest. secondly, conflicts of interest occur irrespective of a person's honesty. that is, they don't presume a person is dishonest or honest. they simply state that a situation is present which offers too great an opportunity for fraud. a doctor can never be on a drug company's payroll regardless of how honest he is simply because the 'potential' is there.
it's not a conflict of interest solely because the person is dishonest. it's a conflict of interest because the opportunity is present. there is no system of checks and balances present. how do you think it would go if the President said that he was the only one who was allowed to count votes?
no conflict there? the opportunity for fraud exists therefore the conflict exists. it doesn't presume innocence or guilt.

currently, this hobby, for the most part, is simply a cottage industry collection of hobbyists acting as dealers, selling out of their basements.
most of them have second jobs and seemingly few of them have advanced formal training in business or law. i think that as our hobby evolves and becomes more complex and lucrative, an increasing number of 'big businesses' similar to steiner will become involved. this will bring with it a number of people with advanced formal training in business law. as soon as that happens, i guarantee you'll hear more about this conflict of interest. as it stands now, some guy working a 9-5 and coming home at night to fill 8 or 9 jersey orders a month isn't really concerned with a conflict of interest that's going to necessitate that he raises his costs.

at any rate, i was perusing rob steinmetz's site and clicking away and started to read his bio. i noticed he's formally trained in marketing and as soon as i read that i thought "well then he should completely be aware of this conflict of interest that i'm referring to. as i kept reading through his site, lo and behold there it was:

authenticgamers.com -
"No conflict of interest issues. As an modern equipment expert working with Global Authentication, I do not examine any material that I have either owned or sold. I also do not offer anything for sale or trade with documentation from Global. By adhering to this policy, customers have no reason to fear self-authentication for purposes of personal gain."

Joel you may not understand it now..Jim Yackel may not understand it or want to believe it, but rest assured, the bigger this hobby gets, the closer we're coming to hearing a lot about it. A dealer offering items which have only been authenticated by himself is a clear conflict of interest. You may come up with all sorts of reasons why it shouldn't be, but as a matter of codified, formalized business ethics, it is.

Joel you brought up the example of Upper Deck Authenticated. Upper Deck Authenticated does not authenticate items. (The name is somewhat of a misnomer). That is, they do not directly employ any authenticators nor do they directly authenticate any items. They either sign an athlete to a contract and then directly have this athlete sign items (no need for authentication) or they buy items from auction houses and other dealers and rely on that third-party authentication. Upper Deck simply sells items. They don't authenticate them. I don't think MeiGray or Steiner can be pulled into this either because their items come directly from athletes so what's left to authenticate? Rafael Palmeiro's identity as he's physically handing them his jersey? This conflict only exists with dealers who buy third-party items. Joel, Steiner does not buy items from other auction houses or dealers. They rely on athlete/team contracts. There is no authentication occuring. Grey Flannel buys from dealers and auction houses. They employ authenticators.
It's typically the smaller dealers who are issuing their own COA's (except for Grey Flannel). Most of the bigger houses have the business expertise to know to avoid this conflict of interest.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Rudy, I was hoping we would drop this, but I guess something woke you up this morning.

I am too tired to post a long reply, but...

1st - Wait for this summer to talk to me about Upper Deck.
2nd - I don't know much, but I know in the past (I am talking years ago) Steiner would buy autographed memorabilia from the likes of Gloria Rothstein and put their hologram on the item.
3rd - Your issues with conflict and Grey Flannel are your issues. Their bidder and customers don't seem to have an issue, so why should you?
4th - You never replied when you want to start a service with me to authenticate memorabilia. I think we would make a great team!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Heh Joel, I found this point of yours the most humorous:

"Your issues with conflict and Grey Flannel are your issues. Their bidder and customers don't seem to have an issue, so why should you?"

While they were making great returns, thousands of shareholders of Enron didn't see any issues. The only people who had issues were a couple of analysts. We know who ended up being right on that one.

Greasy, overly-processed fast food is very bad for your health. Billions of people are very happy eating it. Is there a problem with it? Every single doctor would tell you there is, even though billions of customers 'don't have any issues'.

"I guess if everyone's happy, there can't be a problem."
What a great motto. If only real life worked that way. Joel, unfortunately problems exist even if people can't immediately see them.

Rudy.

[suave1477]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Why Am I Not Surprised Trsent Again Fighting With Another Member For No Reason. I Am Curious Trsent Your The Only One Who Complains On This Site For No Reason And Your Reasons To Argue Most Of The Time Are Not Valid. Can You Comprehend When People Who Are New To This Hobby Are Looking For Harmless Advice. This Member All He Asked Was How Does Grey Flannel Work? You Go Off On A Rant Of Sarcasm About All The Ways He Can Contact Them Directly. Is That Really Going To Help Him, No Not Really!!!! Companies Are Built On Reputation Not But What They Say. Imagine How Many Scam Copanies Would Still Be In Business If We Kept Buying Things From Them If We All Went On What They Said. Hey Trsent Ill Sell You The Brooklyn Bridge For A Dollar Beleive Me Its In My Backyard And You Can Call Me, Email Me, Fax Me, Or Mail Me. You Can Trust Me I Have The Bridge For This 1 Time Low Offer Of A Dollar Just For You ( By The Way The Bridge Is Made Of Gold ) Lol Lol

[trsent]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Rudy, please don't compare Grey Flannel with Enron, that is like comparing apples and mangos.

As for Suave, whatever you said, it was too hard to read because you capitalized like every word. You don't like that someone gives the other side to a discussion? Can't I give my views and Rudy gives his?

Funny thing is even though I often disagree with Rudy, I have no problem with his place on these forums. Rudy spends a lot of time helping people photo-match items. Yes, even then there may be items that are genuine that no photo-match can help prove, but he offers a valuable service to our friends on these forums.

Rudy and I often butt heads on topics, but I feel it is good to see both sides to any debate. If you don't like my side, that is fine, but if you wish to post your displeasure with my side, why not do it maturely, not by stating that I am "fighting for no reason".

My reasons for defending Grey Flannel are my own, I find no issues with how they run their operation. If you do, please call them and ask them to stop.

Let's see, we have a comparison to Enron, a comparison to some idiot buying a bridge, now let me make a comparison...

Anyone see that new AOL commercial where the guy from the computer repair company goes to an AOL office and asks a guy to stop protecting their customers computers for viruses? Then he asks him for them to stop automatically updating their software. Each time the AOL tells him "No".

So you should contact Grey Flannel, ask them to stop authenticating and selling and see what they say.

Have a great day!

[bigtime59]

Re: Grey Flannel question

I'd be less concerned with vendors self-authenticating, if they didn't mess up so much! I don't keep detailed records of this stuff, but GF is right up (down?) there with everybody's favorite whipping boy, Lou Lampson, for writing LOAs on Orioles stuff that make me laugh! out! loud!

[apujols04]

Re: Grey Flannel question

I'd be less concerned with vendors self-authenticating, if they didn't mess up so much! I don't keep detailed records of this stuff, but GF is right up (down?) there with everybody's favorite whipping boy, Lou Lampson, for writing LOAs on Orioles stuff that make me laugh! out! loud!

Lelands does their own authenticating.

[suave1477]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Well as i stated in my last post Trsent, comprehension slips right through your fingers. The very first post that was made was asking if anyone is familiar with how grey flannel works, do they co-sign or do they buy from auctions. Your the one who went off on a rant with Sarcasm. You talk about idiot metaphors. Why dont you try comprehending what someone is saying before speaking. You say if I have a problem with Grey Flannel to contact them "WHEN DID I EVER MENTION HAVING A PROBLEM WITH GREY FLANNEL" NEVER!!!!!!!!!! ( HENCE COMPREHENSION ) I have no problem with you defending grey flannel if you feel positive about them, but there is only one problem no one I DO MEAN NO ONE!!! said anything bad about them and If it is that difficult for you to read capped letters I will try to see if there is a crayon font and see if we can spell it out for you like a 5 yr old. Now as I said before I do value your opinions towards the game used stuff but not towards going off on a sarcastic rant when it is not needed and no one did anything to provoke it. THIS IS A GAMEUSED HOBBY SITE not your personal frustration relief from a hard days work site.

[Eric]

Re: Grey Flannel question

Well as i stated in my last post Trsent, comprehension slips right through your fingers. The very first post that was made was asking if anyone is familiar with how grey flannel works, do they co-sign or do they buy from auctions. Your the one who went off on a rant with Sarcasm. You talk about idiot metaphors. Why dont you try comprehending what someone is saying before speaking. You say if I have a problem with Grey Flannel to contact them "WHEN DID I EVER MENTION HAVING A PROBLEM WITH GREY FLANNEL" NEVER!!!!!!!!!! ( HENCE COMPREHENSION ) I have no problem with you defending grey flannel if you feel positive about them, but there is only one problem no one I DO MEAN NO ONE!!! said anything bad about them and If it is that difficult for you to read capped letters I will try to see if there is a crayon font and see if we can spell it out for you like a 5 yr old. Now as I said before I do value your opinions towards the game used stuff but not towards going off on a sarcastic rant when it is not needed and no one did anything to provoke it. THIS IS A GAMEUSED HOBBY SITE not your personal frustration relief from a hard days work site.

Congratulations! You're suspended. My hands hurt from typing "personal attacks will not be tolerated." Too bad you cannot follow the rules of the forum. Thanks for coming.

[trsent]

Re: Grey Flannel question

I was sarcastic in my first post when Rudy posed his questions, but I often can't answer a question without coming off sarcastic. Oh well, I wasn't looking for trouble.